rspagnuolo
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[SOLVED] I'm confused; What is the latest information on meters and calibration?
Hi All! I posted a little a few days ago, but I think this post may be more exact in expressing my concerns. I can't find anything recent that speaks to my confusion about meters and calibration (or I might have missed something). For instance, are the Sonar meters 3 dB-too-hot (or is it too cold???) or is that an old issue? How do Sonarians go about calibrating their meters to make sure that a ProToolian, Cubasarian, Logilander, etc, will not come back to us with a gripe? Thanks, Ray (aka Oluon)
post edited by rspagnuolo - 2016/11/25 18:33:13
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Anderton
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/22 22:05:16
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John
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/22 22:25:47
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It is true that a meter on DAW A may show a clip when DAW B doesn't. This may be due to the A DAW seeing inter-sample clipping and other not. I believe it isn't that important as long as you keep the final mixdown without clipping. I normally put a limiter on the master buss (Concrete Limiter) to catch any stray overs. I really don't worry about it.
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Klaus
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 14:31:03
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SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
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Anderton
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 14:52:28
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Not sure whether the OP is referring to Peak or RMS values.
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Klaus
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 15:34:20
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Not sure, too. He only mentioned "3 dB" and that could mean pan law (as you said above) or Oversampling Peaks mentioned by John or RMS level (or maybe something completely different...  )
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chuckebaby
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 16:25:30
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Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
Try this test: Load up a metering plug in. but do it like this: 1-Insert a stereo bus.(call it M Bus 1) 2- Now go to the output of your Master bus and send that output to the newly created bus you made in step 1. 3- Load a metering plug in, into the FX bin of M Bus 1. 4-Reference the metering plug in Vs. the Master bus meter. What do you see ? About 3db ? Im not sure why, someone explained it in detail to me once before (a very cool gentlemen). I couldn't wrap my head around it. So when I am in Mix down stages / or Mastering Stages, this is how I meter (Waves Peak, Dorrough, BX Meter, Exc.)
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Klaus
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 17:24:37
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When I use BX Meter in your test, I see a difference of 3 dB in RMS level.
SONAR shows e.g. a RMS level of -15 dB while BX Meter shows a RMS value of -12 dB.
That's why I mentioned it above.
Some meter plug-ins can be set/calibrated to -3 dB RMS, so the reading is the same as in SONAR.
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chuckebaby
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 17:41:38
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Klaus
When I use BX Meter in your test, I see a difference of 3 dB in RMS level.
SONAR shows e.g. a RMS level of -15 dB while BX Meter shows a RMS value of -12 dB.
That's why I mentioned it above.
Some meter plug-ins can be set/calibrated to -3 dB RMS, so the reading is the same as in SONAR.
BX Meter, Great plug in isn't it  . when I put a metering plug in in the master bus FX bin, I see a big difference between what Sonar is showing and the metering plug in. I've tried playing with post/pre FX but as a metering plug ion, it really shouldn't matter. (unless you have FX in the bus bin) I thought this was what the OP might have been asking about, maybe im wrong though. but when I ever hear someone mention a 3db difference in meters, this is one of the first thing that comes to mind. The test above is how I set up for mix down and mastering. by simply adding the extra bus off the master bus, one can get an accurate reading. I simply delete the bus once im finished.
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rspagnuolo
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 18:13:14
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Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
Hi All! Am I the OP? (LOL!) (I am not referring to the Panning Laws.) If I understand the post I am quoting, I could mix to -9 dB peak in Sonar and another - using the AES calibration, for example, a mastering engineer, could see my peak as -6 dB (if his DAW follows the AES calibration rules). Would the same hold for RMS values? Thank you for your help. Ray (aka Oluon)
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Klaus
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 18:50:41
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☄ Helpfulby rspagnuolo 2016/11/23 21:25:35
rspagnuolo
Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
Hi All!
Am I the OP? (LOL!)
(I am not referring to the Panning Laws.)
If I understand the post I am quoting, I could mix to -9 dB peak in Sonar and another - using the AES calibration, for example, a mastering engineer, could see my peak as -6 dB (if his DAW follows the AES calibration rules).
Would the same hold for RMS values?
Thank you for your help.
Ray (aka Oluon)
If you mean "-9 dB peak" vs. "-6 dB peak" = RMS values then yes, a DAW, a meter plug-in or other software which uses the AES calibration would show an RMS value 3 dB higher than SONAR. But honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Leaving sufficient headroom when delivering your mixes to a mastering engineer is more important than matching RMS levels, IMO.
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rspagnuolo
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 21:27:52
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To Klaus, et al,
Thanks for all the help.
We can call this issue solved.
Can I do it, or is someone else in charge of that?
Ray (aka Oluon)
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The Grim 
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/23 21:36:40
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just edit your original (first) post and put 'solved' or whatever in the title
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drewfx1
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/24 11:55:23
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Klaus
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale.
Other programms (DAWs or audio interface software and their meters) could be set to show RMS +3 dB, so that a full scale level would be identical for Peak and RMS at 0 dBFS.
Not a problem at all, just keep it in mind if you compare RMS levels between DAWs and see a difference.
SONAR's RMS level meters show -3 dB at full scale for a sine wave with a peak level of 0dBFS. Some other DAWs show 0 dB RMS for a 0 dBFS peak sine wave. Sonar is doing it the mathematically correct way based on the definition of what "RMS" means and the way "RMS" is used throughout the universe apart from audio. Period. Some other folks in the audio world had the (not so) bright idea of redefining "RMS" in the audio world so that a sine wave have the same peak and RMS reading, but still calling it "RMS". I suspect this was because then you could calibrate stuff throughout your setup with a sine wave and not have to worry whether a given meter was showing peak or "RMS" Which would have been fine, but they should have called that "RMS+3" or "RMS3" or something that wouldn't lead to multiple "standards" and confuse people by having the same term being defined differently in a subset of DAWs vs. everywhere else.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/24 13:08:30
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Despite Sonar showing rms as being -3db down compared to peak, this is NOT the standard though. Every other DAW out there shows the rms value as being the very top of the sinewave. It is an agreed standard now and for some reason Sonar is the only DAW that does not comply.
Metering is not directly related to the electrical rms being 3 db down from peak value like it is in the world of electrical engineering. In my opinion Sonar should change this and match all the others.
It does not matter though because the rms metering in Sonar is not that helpful, it is too low on the scale anyway plus the fact it shows up 3 db lower puts it even lower on the scale.
If you are serious about rms metering you need a proper VU meter plugin (eg Klanghelm) and then you will find they are reading correctly anyway. eg top of the sinewave peak is the value shown.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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rspagnuolo
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/24 19:43:20
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Hi Jeff, Drew and The Grim,
Thank you for your posts. (Jeff: I use the Klanghelm VU meter.)
The info is very helpful.
Thanks,
Ray (aka Oluon)
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drewfx1
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/25 00:07:04
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Jeff Evans
Despite Sonar showing rms as being -3db down compared to peak, this is NOT the standard though. Every other DAW out there shows the rms value as being the very top of the sinewave. It is an agreed standard now and for some reason Sonar is the only DAW that does not comply.
Metering is not directly related to the electrical rms being 3 db down from peak value like it is in the world of electrical engineering. In my opinion Sonar should change this and match all the others.
Audio metering is absolutely directly related to all the other definitions - what the other DAW vendors do is just compute the actual RMS like Sonar and then add 3dB to it. So what they're displaying isn't "RMS", it's "RMS +3dB". If Cakewalk wants to add an "RMS+3dB" display option, that would be great - as long as they don't call it "RMS".
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/25 15:39:22
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Yes there is confusion surrounding this. As I have said Sonar is technically correct in terms of where it shows rms levels. To add to the confusion too if you use a square wave as the test signal the rms level in Sonar (and all other DAW's) will be 3 dB higher as well.
BUT what most other DAW's are doing are showing the rms level as being the very peak of a sinewave which is sort of incorrect in a way but it is what is happening here. For example in say Studio One (and most other DAW's) if you measure the level of a sine wave it will show the rms level as being the very peak of that wave.
eg as Drew puts it rms + 3 dB.
Even if you buy a VU VST such as the Klanghelm (and all the others too) it will also rms level as being the very peak of the sinewave. (By the way this peak level is nothing to with very short transient peaks either, it is peak level for a continuous sinewave eg the very top of that wave)
That is what you have to get used to and it is the way it is eg the agreed standard now.
The AES17 standard gets into all this but it is quite a lot of heavy reading.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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mcstringer413
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/25 16:39:43
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Jeff Evans
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Re: I'm confused What are the latest information on meters and calibration?
2016/11/25 17:17:11
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☄ Helpfulby mcstringer413 2016/11/25 20:18:49
Thanks for that. I had no idea that the VUMT had been updated. Even updating to V2 from the standard version without deluxe is pretty nice. The extra skins are welcome and also the fact you can resize the GUI is also excellent. The deluxe version looks cool too. Might upgrade it is pretty cheap. Deluxe certainly offers some extra nice features as well. And it is cheaper again if you are an existing VUMT user. The Deluxe version offers a single band dynamic EQ which is pretty cool. What often happens when you put a VU meter over a whole mix say is you might see some wild swinging well over 0 dB VU at various times. What this is telling you often is there might be one rogue track/channel that has got some wild levels going on and once you mute it then the mix VU just settles down to a beautiful ballistic just peaking 0 dB VU all the time. So you know that you have isolated it down to just that right track. What should happen next is the track is fixed using a plugin/s and then when it is returned to the mix the track becomes audible again but the wild swinging has gone away. The deluxe version of VUMT now incorporates this repair option if you like within the VU meter itself (eg it becomes an insert effect) so this dynamic EQ can be setup around the trouble frequency range and with care in setting it can tame any rogue level changes in that area. Very cool indeed. Not to mention more metering options and other things as well. I have not got deluxe yet but I will get it and test out how effective this dynamic EQ actually is.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/11/25 18:15:35
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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