Del
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 168
- Joined: 2004/08/20 13:36:46
- Location: USA
- Status: offline
|
ampfixer
Max Output Level: -20 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5508
- Joined: 2010/12/12 20:11:50
- Location: Ontario
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/23 19:21:39
(permalink)
I don't use a conditioner at home but swear by them for use in live production. I have steady power levels and no noise issues so I don't worry. When setting up in a public place it's not so easy. Noise and power line loading from heavy equipment can cause all kinds of issues. The worst environment I've encountered is outdoor settings where generators are used. If you have frequent power outages or notice the lights getting dimmer or brighter on a regular basis or if you have AC line noise, then a conditioner is probably a good investment.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/23 20:33:01
(permalink)
I've always had some sort of Furman Rack conditioner. I have one on my live set up and one in the studio. They are just a bunch of heavy duty Capacitors in a box. I like them more for their rack mounting than I believe they are the best thing going. I've always scored mine cheap in pawn shops and thrift stores for $10-$15. A good quality UPS would be a better investment. Most of those are also power conditioners.
|
wst3
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1979
- Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
- Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 10:32:34
(permalink)
MOST power conditioners are like any other after-market add-on, very high margin products that don't often really do anything. Step 1 - do you have a power problem? Step 2 - what is your power problem? High or Low voltage, insufficient current, noise, transients, frequent outages, or what? Step 3 - select the appropriate device to resolve your problem or problems. The only blanket caveats I am comfortable with include: - you should avoid devices that use MOVs to shunt noise to ground. They are not a good idea around computers or other sensitive devices. If you have a problem with spikes you want series mode protection devices, SurgeX and Middle Atlantic both offer them. They absorb the spike instead of just dumping it to ground.
- Avoid ALL schemes that involve separate ground rods. They don't work, they are way too expensive, and if done poorly they can create a dangerous ground potential difference.
If you have noise problems consider an isolation transformer, and if that is not sufficient consider a "separately derived" sub-panel, fed from an isolation transformer. It is equally important to choose a grounding system that is appropriate - the two main categories are single-point and mesh, both work, and they can be combined, but that is some tricky business! TL:DR - most power conditioners are snake oil, get one only if you know (a) what you are solving, and (b) that it will solve that specific problem!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
|
Jesse G
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4282
- Joined: 2004/04/14 01:43:43
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 14:46:41
(permalink)
I always use Furman Power conditioners. I current have two of them in use. One is for my rack gear and the other is what my keyboards and amps are plugged into. We have to keep our studio gear safe, no matter if we paid a little or a lot for it, it still must remain protected.
Peace,Jesse G. A fisher of men <>< ==============================Cakewalk and I are going places together! Cakewalk By Bandlab, Windows 10 Pro- 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-Z97X-SLI, Intel Core i5-4460 Haswell Processor, Crucial Ballistix 32 GB Ram, PNY GeForce GTX 750, Roland Octa-Capture, Mackie Big Knob, Mackie Universal Controller (MCU), KRK V4's, KRK Rockit 6, Korg TR-61 Workstation, M-Audio Code 49 MIDI keyboard controller.[/
|
Karyn
Ma-Ma
- Total Posts : 9200
- Joined: 2009/01/30 08:03:10
- Location: Lincoln, England.
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 16:44:45
(permalink)
I use one in my live rack because I can't guarantee the quality of power supplies in other peoples venues, especially outside running off generators.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
|
fireberd
Max Output Level: -38 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3704
- Joined: 2008/02/25 14:14:28
- Location: Inverness, FL
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 18:21:29
(permalink)
The "power conditioners" are nothing more than surge protectors unless you get into the real high $$$ models with voltage regulation, etc. I use a UPS system. It has some surge protection but that does not seem to be a problem with my AC power, however I do have some power outages. Like many commercial installations I have 3rd wire ground at each receptacle as there is no metal conduit (that could be used for ground connections) just AC power grade PVC conduit. The UPS (battery backup) maintains power during short power outages and as it has a control connection to the PC it allows auto (orderly) shutdown if there is an extended outage. I used to work as a Regional LAN/WAN Network and Hardware Help Desk Manager for a Federal Government Agency. When they were in preliminary preparation to upgrade the on-line network from IBM 3270 "dumb" terminals to PC based LAN systems at our field offices. one of the steps was to take a recording power monitor to each office and do measurements on the AC power. Findings were that most had "clean" power and high quality ($200) surge protectors for the workstations were all that was needed. UPS systems were purchased for the server and communications equipment. Most of the observed power outages were short duration (5 minute range) and a UPS would take care of those. In the case of longer duration power outages, the UPS allowed "orderly" shut down the server. One other thing that was specified for all AC power outlets. for the equipment, were Hubbell IG 5262 "Isolated Ground" receptacles (orange color receptacles). Specifications also included a requirement to run a 3rd wire ground directly from the AC power (breaker) box ground to the ground lug on the Isolated Ground Receptacle. Conduit grounds were unacceptable. Isolated grounds eliminated some potential noise on the AC power lines. This may sound like "overkill" for a recording studio but it really isn't.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
|
soens
Max Output Level: -23.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5154
- Joined: 2005/09/16 03:19:55
- Location: Location: Location
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 18:32:28
(permalink)
I use a UPS/Surge protector with a 1000+ joule rating due to constant power outages and the occasional lightning storm.
|
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2817
- Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 18:49:26
(permalink)
I have a Monster Power 3500 power conditioner that I bought a few years agi, and it's really helped me. Before I bought it, I would run into random noise in my system. After installing the power conditioner, the noise was gone and hasn't been back.
|
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3169
- Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 20:03:45
(permalink)
fireberd The "power conditioners" are nothing more than surge protectors unless you get into the real high $$$ models with voltage regulation, etc.
This is the truth. Even the $250 Furmans, etc are really nothing more than fancy power strips. As a guess, you'll need to get in the $1000+ range to start getting true power conditioners. Also, many of the surge protectors in the power strips at Best Buy, are a one time affair, meaning if you take a hit, it will probably take out any future surge protection along with the likelihood that you'll never know whether it did or not as it will still pass current. I use a UPS large enough for the studio and totally unplug during bad storms, etc.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 20:26:59
(permalink)
☼ Best Answerby Del 2016/11/27 12:47:22
Answer to the OP: yes, a power conditioner doesn't hurt; but no, not that one. As fireberd says, that type of "power conditioner" doesn't do squat to condition your power. They're not entirely useless, though. There is a benefit to simply plugging all your equipment into a common bus, assuming that power strip has a straight connection to your service panel's N-G bus. Also, that cheap surge protector MIGHT conceivably save your equipment from a lightning strike (assuming it's fast enough; most aren't), but it'll also self-destruct the first time it does its job. A UPS isn't necessarily any better. The cheap ones you get at Office Depot use the same kind of crappy surge protectors as the $10 power strips. What qualifies as conditioning will, at best, be a single inductor. Real power conditioners and UPSs can be had, but they're not cheap. If you live in an area with exceptionally dirty power, it might be worth the investment. However, most parts of the U.S. and Canada do not have such horribly bad power that an expensive conditioner / UPS is justified. For most of us, it's enough to add an inexpensive UPS just so we don't lose data in a power outage. For $150-250 you can add a better-quality surge protector if you're in an area prone to lightning.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/24 22:33:15
(permalink)
My pedal board does something useful. Idk what.
Also I have a heavy UPS.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|
JonD
Max Output Level: -39 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3617
- Joined: 2003/12/09 11:09:10
- Location: East of Santa Monica
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/25 11:35:08
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Del 2016/11/27 12:49:04
Leadfoot I have a Monster Power 3500 power conditioner that I bought a few years agi, and it's really helped me. Before I bought it, I would run into random noise in my system. After installing the power conditioner, the noise was gone and hasn't been back.
Another happy Monster Power 3500 user here. Used to live in an old apt building with crappy wiring, and now in the Southeast U.S. with constant electrical storms. The 3500 has been a godsend. Funny thing is, at the time I bought the 3500, I hated (and still do) the Monster Power company because of their bullying business practices (Look it up -- mind-boggingly crazy). I couldn't see myself ever giving them any $$... Then I walked into a Circuit City store on literally its last day of business. Most of the inventory was gone, and the few items left were mostly esoteric or blemished pieces. I was surprised to see a MP 3500 demo unit sitting alone on a shelf, marked down to $90 (from 299.95). I tracked down the frazzled manager, and, after negotiating it down to $75 plus tax, I took it home. After hooking it up, I immediately noticed a difference in sound (This was the crappy apt). Never had a problem with it since, and that was 8 years ago.
SonarPlat/CWbBL, Win 10 Pro, i7 2600K, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB DDR3, Radeon HD5450, TC Electronic Impact Twin, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
|
Vastman
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2508
- Joined: 2006/08/30 02:49:18
- Location: Oakland, CA
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/26 01:50:01
(permalink)
true sine wave battery backup surge is preferable with modern equipment... killer deal at costco Why Choose a UPS that delivers True Sine Wave Output? High end PCs and workstations include graphics cards, processors, and other devices that consume more power than home computers. Gaming PCs often have power hungry, high performance processors and graphics cards. And many federal, state, and educational institutions specify that new PCs have internal switching power supplies with ENERGY STAR® ratings. To meet all these demands and improve energy efficiency, leading manufacturers use switching power supplies with active power factor correction (Active PFC). Power supplies with Active PFC circuits can be more sensitive to changes in input power. Their dependability improves when true sine wave power—the kind supplied by utility providers—is provided during an outage. Devices with Active PFC power supplies can shut down unexpectedly when using a UPS with simulated sine wave output, resulting in data loss or equipment damage. Here’s why: A simulated sine wave output has a power gap at each cycle. When the UPS switches to battery current, a power supply with an Active PFC circuit may detect that power gap and shut itself down. This power gap may not always cause the power supply to switch off, but any sudden failure can have serious consequences. UPS systems with that deliver true sine wave output prevent unexpected shutdowns and damaging stress. To find whether your equipment uses an Active PFC power supply, check the device itself, review the user manual, or contact the manufacturer. For optimal performance, connect any equipment with Active PFC power supplies to a UPS system with true sine wave output.
Dana We make the future... Climate Change MusicVastMaschine:SP4L/W10/i74930K/32GB/RME/CAD E100s; The Orchestra! NOVO!/Inspire/BohemianViolin&Cello, ARK1&2,/MinimalCapriccioMaximoSoto/OE1&2, Action&Emotive/Omni2/Tril/RMX/All OrangeTree/Falcon/APE Jugs/Alpha&Bravo/BFD3 & SD3Gravity/DM307/AEON/DM/Damage/Diva/HZebra/Hive/Diversion/VC4/Serum/Alchemy/blablablaSpitfire/8DIO/SL/KH/EW/NI; Shred1&2/AGF,G,M&T Torch&Res&Ren/GD-6; Ibanez SR1200&SR505NOVAX FanFret Tele&Strat
|
ampfixer
Max Output Level: -20 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5508
- Joined: 2010/12/12 20:11:50
- Location: Ontario
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/26 13:10:31
(permalink)
Seems to be general consensus on power conditioners. Not a bad idea but you get what you pay for. When I put together a pedal board I generally put a Monster power bar with line conditioning as the first component. THey are under $200 and perform all the basic protection functions along with some AC line conditioning. There are 2 main reasons I use them. Firstly, they provide basic protection for users and equipment, secondly, if you read the fine print on the box you'll see that if you register the power bar with Monster they will insure the equipment attached to their power bar. I think the value is around $15,000, but don't hold me to that. It's really about peace of mind.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/26 20:40:31
(permalink)
OK - I have read through this thread - and am AMAZED at the knowledge level folks have on these issues. Well done - ALL. I jumped in to read this thread because my issue is a bit different, but power consistency related. I have a computerized rig, running some music performance software that hosts VST plugins and allows layering and zoning and all the nice midi control stuff I need - and all of my sounds live in the computer and are triggered by two midi controllers. The ISSUE is that the rehearsal rental space we use for the current project seems to have slight momentary drops in voltage - they are not long or even noticeable with any of the gear, with the exception that one or the other midi controller (USB powered) would not actually get completely disconnected from being detected by Windows - but somehow would simply stop being able to trigger notes in the performance software. If I were to have unplugged or turned off either controller, the software would detect that and issue a message box warning that a needed device was no longer available, and that message never popped up, nor did power ever actually turn off for either controller. But still, somehow - the slight voltage variations were enough to where 5-6 times over a four-hour span, I would have to stop playing whatever song we were doing and restart the performance software (loading a ton of samples into memory and initialization and all of that), and that is something I HAVE to remedy prior to the next rehearsal. My rig NEVER has had these kinds of things happen, before or after - only using the power at the rehearsal stage. So - can someone please help me understand what I would need to pick up in order to keep the voltage consistent? (and again these weren't spikes, but very slight drops). Most of what I read in these posts seemed to be referencing spikes, so I need some advice going the other way. Thanks!!!!!! :) Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
Del
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 168
- Joined: 2004/08/20 13:36:46
- Location: USA
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/27 12:56:07
(permalink)
Thanks all for your replies, thoughts and suggestions, as Robert says in #16 reply (above) I too am always amazed at the kind, intelligent and helpful answers that I receive when asking questions on this forum! One ,more reason that I am proud to be part of this group of very fine people, the people of Sonar!
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/27 23:38:59
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2016/11/28 21:47:52
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Should Someone Use a Power Conditioner For Your Audio Equipment?
2016/11/28 12:01:30
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2016/11/28 21:46:48
Bob, if you're using a laptop I'd suggest running on battery for rehearsals. Assuming, of course, that it lasts the 4 hours you need it to. You can buy aftermarket batteries for most laptops that may have greater capacity than the stock ones that came with your laptop. There are also add-on external battery packs that sit under the laptop. Either would likely cost less than a quality UPS, and avoid the need to carry around a heavy item. Other than that, you could use an online (as opposed to standby) UPS. These don't just condition power, they actually serve as a power source, using an oscillator to generate a reasonably clean sine wave output. They're pricey and they're heavy. But they'll keep your line voltage steady and make you immune to most surges, sags, EMI and RFI.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|