Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ?

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RishiS
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2016/11/30 14:50:25 (permalink)

Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ?

I mostly record VSTs in the box.I track only vocals through the mic and may be one or two instruments at times. I have latency issues with my Scarlett and also hear about the stunning quality pres. The price difference is significant so I want to make sure I see a significant benefit of upgrading to either the babyface or UCX beyond of course a lower latency ( seeing 10ms right now)
I would like to validate my understanding :
1. Since I dont record live instruments much , I'm assuming the DSP fx on the UCX is not so useful for me.Is this correct ?
2. My work is heavily vocal centric so I'm hoping to hear better clarity in the vocal recordings? Is it a reasonable assumption?
3. In case I need more inputs in the future the adat input will have me covered.
4. If I have to connect a second pair of monitors I think I will need the UCX since the babyface has only 2 outs for the monitors.Not possible without a monitor controller right now.
5.Will I hear a difference in sound from the VSTs ?...in terms of clarity ?If I produce a piece of music completely using VSTs..bounce a wave file and play it on an external system..to what extent does the audio interface used to bounce the wave file have an impact on the sound quality on such music?
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/11/30 20:42:09 (permalink)
    1. Since I dont record live instruments much , I'm assuming the DSP fx on the UCX is not so useful for me.Is this correct ?
    The DSP effects are useful for monitoring with effects during tracking, without printing them to tape. And if there's a good compressor included then that's also handy. They are not a deal breaker , other things are more important. 

    2. My work is heavily vocal centric so I'm hoping to hear better clarity in the vocal recordings? Is it a reasonable assumption?
    Yes, I would hope so. I'm not a fan of my Scarletts pre amps so I bought a Joe Meek 3 Q.
    Down the road I am looking at the Tascam uh 7000 just to get the better pre amps.  Most of those $600 plus interfaces have much better pres than the Scarletts which are consumer grade at best. 

    3. In case I need more inputs in the future the adat input will have me covered.
    Yes, but then your spending big money on the device to make that happen. If you truly think you need more inputs in the future,  then you should purchase an interface that has what you need now. 

    4. If I have to connect a second pair of monitors I think I will need the UCX since the babyface has only
    2 outs for the monitors.Not possible without a monitor controller right now.
    My above statement again. Make sure you get what you need in connectivity. Why spend the money again and again to get what comes almost free on the right device. 

    5.Will I hear a difference in sound from the VSTs ?...in terms of clarity ?If I produce a piece of music completely using VSTs..bounce a wave file and play it on an external system..to what extent does the audio interface used to bounce the wave file have an impact on the sound quality on such music?
     
    None. You could unplug your Scarlett and export an audio file it will be the same. It's all number crunching done your CPU and the software. An audio interface is for getting the audio in and out. It has nothing to do once the audio is ITB 
     
    Here's my shopping list to ponder: 
     
    What kind of connectivity do you require? and how many of each.
    These are some of the options:
    XLR, 1/4",  Combi jacks,  RCA, ¼” line level, ¼” Instrument level ,MIDI, SPDIF, ADAT,MADI
    How many ins and outs do you think you'll need now and in the future?
    Are they accessible?  Front or rear 
    Are all ¼” jacks Balanced?  
    Is there a true stereo pair? Some don’t have a matched set of inputs.
    Pre Amps will fall under the “you get what you pay for”  rule, but check out the reviews anyhow.
    A/D convertors will also fall under the same rule and generally all are good these days.
    Are there peak level meters or just a little LED for each input?
    Are there channel Insert jacks?
    Are there separate controls for Monitor level and headphone level?
    Is there a blend control for mixing Source with Computer ( DAW) ?
    How many Headphone jacks? A level for each?
    Are the input pads or line / Instrument toggle switches on the front, back or software controlled?
    Is it a metal box or cheap plastic? Is it light and portable or large and bulky, Rack mountable?
    Does it have an on / off switch?
    Does it use Buss power or a power supply? Buss power can have issues with noise and Phantom power. Look for at least an optional power supply.  
    Does it have DSP effects built in?
    Does it use a GUI mixer? Having a software (GUI) mixer adds more options.
    Can it be used as stand alone? Some interfaces are also handy as a small mixer.
    What are the Round Trip Latency (RTL) specs? Do you need low RTL for real time processing?
    Low RTL is going to be at a higher price point. A $200 interface will have hidden buffers etc.
    Zero Latency monitoring is not the same as RTL. All interfaces have some latency.
    Zero latency is just marketing hype for monitoring directly from the interface.
    And most important of all, Does it have top notch drivers for your OS. 
    What is the word on support from the company?
    Does it come with free software, An LE version of a  DAW you would like to try?
     
    Everyone will recommend the interface they have chosen, that doesn't mean it is the right one for you. 
     

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #2
    Kev999
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/11/30 21:28:57 (permalink)
    RishiS
    ...If I produce a piece of music completely using VSTs..bounce a wave file and play it on an external system..to what extent does the audio interface used to bounce the wave file have an impact on the sound quality on such music?

     
    None (as Johnny said). However it will sound clearer while you are monitoring. Your mixes might improve as a result.

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    #3
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 03:51:48 (permalink)
    Kev999
    RishiS
    ...If I produce a piece of music completely using VSTs..bounce a wave file and play it on an external system..to what extent does the audio interface used to bounce the wave file have an impact on the sound quality on such music?

     
    None (as Johnny said). However it will sound clearer while you are monitoring. Your mixes might improve as a result.


    Thanks , that helps.
    #4
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 04:02:56 (permalink)
    Cactus...thanks for the awesome check list !
     
    Cactus Music
    3. In case I need more inputs in the future the adat input will have me covered.
    Yes, but then your spending big money on the device to make that happen. If you truly think you need more inputs in the future,  then you should purchase an interface that has what you need now. 

    Ok...that is a valuable piece of advice I overlooked.
     
    Cactus Music
    4. If I have to connect a second pair of monitors I think I will need the UCX since the babyface has only
    2 outs for the monitors.Not possible without a monitor controller right now.
    My above statement again. Make sure you get what you need in connectivity. Why spend the money again and again to get what comes almost free on the right device.

    I have a related question here. Some interfaces have a pair of output called " mains " and some just have balanced line outs. What is the difference between the two ? If I plug the main monitors to the mains and the second pair to line outputs (say 3 and 4), would that be ok ? I am assuming I will have to calibrate the levels on all the four monitors to a standard spl using an spl meter. And for interfaces which do not have a pair designed for the main monitors, am I losing out on something ? The UFX has a pair of XLR outs for the mains and the UCX has all TRS line outs, nothing specifically labelled as mains.
     
     
    Cactus Music
     
    Is there a true stereo pair? Some don’t have a matched set of inputs.
    Are there channel Insert jacks?

    For what kind of applications will I need these? I have always tracked in mono and bounced to stereo if needed.
     
    Cactus Music
    How many Headphone jacks? A level for each?

    I acutually need 2 headphone outs but I am seeing more than one headphone outs only on the high end interfaces which are out of my budget (like the UFX). The babyface has 2 of them but the I/O on it may not be future proof for me. I was trying to avoid spending on a monitor controller for this purpose and for additional pair of monitors.
     
     
     
    #5
    gswitz
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 07:51:38 (permalink)
    I have a UCX with an Audient ASP 880 in the ADAT. I like it, but I record more than vocals.

    If you don't already have a Mic you Love, you might be better off spending your money there.

    The FX on the dsp of the RME are awesome. I use the expander more than compressor, but the EQ most. Don't be so sure this will not be of value to you. I use the EQ when mixing all the time. I have different favorites that help me imagine how it might sound in different places. You can do this in sonar, I do it in the RME.

    Remember too that you get DigiCheck with your device. Read about it. I love it and used it recording a band last night.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #6
    batsbrew
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 10:43:13 (permalink)
    BABYFACE has 2 headphone outs,
    separate mixes available for each.

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    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 11:45:27 (permalink)
    gswitz

    If you don't already have a Mic you Love, you might be better off spending your money there.

    The FX on the dsp of the RME are awesome. I use the expander more than compressor, but the EQ most. Don't be so sure this will not be of value to you. I use the EQ when mixing all the time. I have different favorites that help me imagine how it might sound in different places. You can do this in sonar, I do it in the RME.


    I have shortlisted a few mics already almost zeroed on the Neumann Tlm 102.
    What did you mean by ' you can do this in sonar'. Can I use the rme fx to mix in sonar? The way I understand this is that I can use these fx while recording thru the inputs on the RME but then the recording is 'hardcoded' with the fx forever.
    #8
    batsbrew
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/01 13:43:42 (permalink)
    EASIEST WAY TO LEARN:
     
    http://babyface.rme-audio.de/

    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
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    #9
    tlw
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/04 11:22:01 (permalink)
    The fx in the UFX can be "printed" to the recording or just sent to the monitor/foldback. Totalmix is essentially a high-end digital mixer with a huge range of routing possibilities.

    As for XLR "main outs" vs TRS line outs they're the same thing with different sockets. Totalmix assumes the "main outs" will be the monitoring bus but it doesn't have to be. I use line outs mostly to send audio from the DAW to processors or synth audio inputs but I could equally well use them with monitors or headphone amplifiers.

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    #10
    gswitz
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/04 22:23:07 (permalink)
    You can use the FX for monitoring while you record while not recording the FX.

    You can record the inputs with the FX.

    You could even use the FX to mix. If you send from sonar using external insert, you could then apply EQ, compression, reverb and echo... loopback in the RME, and there you go. :-)

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #11
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/26 23:55:04 (permalink)
    gswitz
    You could even use the FX to mix. If you send from sonar using external insert, you could then apply EQ, compression, reverb and echo... loopback in the RME, and there you go. :-)



    Wow..this is interesting, I was looking for some way to use the onboard FX on the RME during the mix stage as against "hardcoding" them during the recording stage. Thanks for the input.
    #12
    gswitz
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 00:11:52 (permalink)
    Yeppers.

    Sometimes when doing a live thing with less than eight inputs, I loopback the ADAT...

    This means plug the ADAT out to the in.

    This allows me to stack EQ and do parallel compression.

    Stacking EQ is nice if you are trying to EQ out feedback and would like more nodes.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #13
    JonD
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 10:51:54 (permalink)
    That's quite a significant price jump.  You're not going to get an improvement in sound quality going to RME (According to the specs, the Focusrites are equal or better). 
     
    What you would get with RME is rock-solid driver performance.
     
    IMO, you should also look at the Audient interfaces.  They are a step up in fidelity, the built in mic-pres are some of the best available on any interface, and the prices of the lower models won't break your wallet.
     
    http://www.sweetwater.com/c695--Audient--USB_Audio_Interfaces
     

    SonarPlat/CWbBL, Win 10 Pro, i7 2600K, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB DDR3, Radeon HD5450, TC Electronic Impact Twin, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
    #14
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 11:14:15 (permalink)
    That's quite a significant price jump.  You're not going to get an improvement in sound quality going to RME (According to the specs, the Focusrites are equal or better). 
     
    This I would say is questionable information. 
    I have a Scarllet- the pre amps are amoung the worst quality of any device I've owned. I don't use them... As I said 4 weeks ago, my next interface will either be a Tascam UH 7000 or if I'm feeling flush an RME or Motu. 
     
    Note to OP, If you mostly only use 2 inputs another option is buy the best 2 inputs you can get. You might save enough money buy a Tascam us16x04 for $300 to use on the odd occation you need more inputs.  
     

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #15
    JonD
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 12:02:19 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    That's quite a significant price jump.  You're not going to get an improvement in sound quality going to RME (According to the specs, the Focusrites are equal or better). 
     
    This I would say is questionable information.



    I did say "according to the specs".  OP already has a Scarlett so he'd be in the best position to know how he feels about their quality.
     
    Anyway, my main point was that he should take a look at the Audients, which are getting rave reviews about their sound.  Sorry, but I don't see the Tascam 16x08  as a step up in any way.  Maybe the UH7000....

    SonarPlat/CWbBL, Win 10 Pro, i7 2600K, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB DDR3, Radeon HD5450, TC Electronic Impact Twin, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
    #16
    tlw
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 13:17:34 (permalink)
    The mic pres in my UFX are quieter than those in my Focusrite Octopre, and there is a difference in sound though it's not as obvious as going from a bargain basement interface to an RME would be. Pumping white noise through them indicates the RME pres have a slightly flatter frequency curve, the Focusrite ones having a slight treble boost which varies a bit from pre to pre. The difference in noise level isn't too much of an issue, or even an issue at all, with a low track count but as the number of tracks goes up it becomes more noticable.

    I've nothing to say about Forcusrite drivers, as the Octopre is ADATed to the UFX so the RME driver and Totalmix do all the work.

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    #17
    gswitz
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/27 21:59:17 (permalink)
    I own an Audient ASP 880. It has problems. It is currently back in the shop for the second time.
     
    Could be my unit...
     
    They keep having to upgrade the firmware and this cannot be done without shipping it back. So far, out of 9 months of ownership, it has been out of my hands 4 weeks and counting. Maybe more.
     
    The Audient has significant noise at the nyquist frequency at double rates (88.2 and 96). It also has significant noise at the lowest frequency level. It seems to work ok. I'm not throwing it under the bus. I mostly use it for drums anyway, but it is nowhere not even anywhere close to the RME UCX I own.
     
    I would have purchased an RME Micstacy, or at least the OctaMic XTC, which is what I wanted but the price was out of reach at the time and I needed the extra eight inputs. I like trying different gear.

    The Audient folks currently have the unit and are working on it. They have been a big help. And the unit sounds good. The problems have been more visible using RME DigiCheck.
     
    My only regret with the RME is that I didn't get the UFX.
     
    G
    post edited by gswitz - 2016/12/28 15:52:02

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #18
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/28 06:47:31 (permalink)
    I am currently facing latency issues with the scarlett 2i2 and also falling short of outputs as I've moved from beginner to intermediate level over the past several years. My main concern with 2i2 has been a significant lag in hearing my own vocals on the headphone while singing to the mic. Direct monitoring is not audible unless i turn the mic gain to its max (which obviously causes clipping). The input echo in sonar is too delayed. So im ending up recording vocals without being able to hear myself on the headphone while singing.
     
    So want to get rid of these kind of issues once for all, the best one my researched showed was RME. Also I need more I/O to plug in a second pair of monitors and may be some outboard gear in the future, hence the UCX and not the Babyface. UFX would have been ideal (coz i need 2 headphone outs as well) but is out of my budget. I would rather plug in a headphone amp for much lesser cost.
    #19
    gswitz
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/28 08:51:08 (permalink)
    RishiS,

    For headphones, I bought one of these...

    https://smile.amazon.com/...NZpzWCL&ref=plSrch

    Regarding the UFX, the biggest thing on the UFX that I would like is the memory card recording. It makes it so you can live-mix and record with just an iPad with ease.

    Basically, I don't really use the iPad with my UCX, but it would be nice to.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #20
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/29 00:39:33 (permalink)
    gswitz
    RishiS,

    For headphones, I bought one of these...

    https://smile.amazon.com/...NZpzWCL&ref=plSrch


    Yes..im looking at either something like this or an headphone amp with 4 outputs.
    #21
    lawajava
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/29 01:10:33 (permalink)
    RishiS
    I am currently facing latency issues with the scarlett 2i2 and also falling short of outputs as I've moved from beginner to intermediate level over the past several years. My main concern with 2i2 has been a significant lag in hearing my own vocals on the headphone while singing to the mic. Direct monitoring is not audible unless i turn the mic gain to its max (which obviously causes clipping). The input echo in sonar is too delayed. So im ending up recording vocals without being able to hear myself on the headphone while singing.
     
    So want to get rid of these kind of issues once for all, the best one my researched showed was RME. Also I need more I/O to plug in a second pair of monitors and may be some outboard gear in the future, hence the UCX and not the Babyface. UFX would have been ideal (coz i need 2 headphone outs as well) but is out of my budget. I would rather plug in a headphone amp for much lesser cost.


    If you want to consider a whole new concept, consider a very small cash outlay and stick with your Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. I think from what I've read you could achieve your goals in this less costly way with great success.

    $122 for a small mixer with effects (such as reverb and delay). I use this.
    https://www.amazon.com/Ya...Yamaha+6+channel+mixer

    $35 mic splitter:
    https://www.amazon.com/AR...ds=Microphone+splitter

    Maybe another $20 for an additional short mic cable or two if you don 't have them.

    Plug your mic into the splitter. One cable from the splitter goes in the 2i2, the other into the mixer. Headphone out from the 2i2, run a cable from the 2i2 headphone out into one of the mixer channel inputs.

    Your headphones plug in to the mixer. On the mixer you can balance the Sonar music playback with your live mic volume to a desired balance, and add effects to your mic that you hear on your headphones (but do not record to Sonar since this is on a split wire that doesn't even route to Sonar).

    You can then record into Sonar at a 1024 buffer (if you want to be that ridiculous) and monitor your live singing with absolutely zero latency. It's perfect.

    The Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 records clearly into Sonar without a trace of color.

    So, yes, you can upgrade to an RME for a hefty price, or you can achieve bliss for about $160.

    I know this works.

    Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
    #22
    RishiS
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    Re: Benefits of upgrading from focusrite 2i2 to RME ? 2016/12/29 08:17:14 (permalink)
    lawajava

    Plug your mic into the splitter. One cable from the splitter goes in the 2i2, the other into the mixer. Headphone out from the 2i2, run a cable from the 2i2 headphone out into one of the mixer channel inputs.

    Your headphones plug in to the mixer. On the mixer you can balance the Sonar music playback with your live mic volume to a desired balance, and add effects to your mic that you hear on your headphones (but do not record to Sonar since this is on a split wire that doesn't even route to Sonar).

    You can then record into Sonar at a 1024 buffer (if you want to be that ridiculous) and monitor your live singing with absolutely zero latency. It's perfect.

    The Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 records clearly into Sonar without a trace of color.

    So, yes, you can upgrade to an RME for a hefty price, or you can achieve bliss for about $160.

    I know this works.

    This is cool ! :)...I sure it does work. I just plugged in a cheap headphone preamp and managed to overcome the issue with direct monitoring. However, I cannot balance the levels of the voice and the rest of track, or add effects to the voice,  like your solution mentions. But your solution is really cost effective! useful information that helps ! 
     
    Im moving to RME not just to resolve the latency issue but also for more I/O and the "better sound" that RME is talked about for and as a next step in the process of moving from beginner to intermediate level equipment !
    #23
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