Helpful Replyanother ARC thread

Author
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5449
  • Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
  • Location: SE Florida
  • Status: offline
2016/12/07 13:48:36 (permalink)

another ARC thread

The other ARC thread got me thinking .
 
Has anyone tried to do an eq match of the ARC output (say, using PRO-Q or similar) and then using that EQ instead of ARC.
I was going to try this as the phase issues with ARC are a big problem for me and was hoping the EQ match would remove the phase problems from the equation.
 
Was wondering what signal I should use? White or Pink noise? 

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#1
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 86000
  • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
  • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 14:04:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2016/12/07 14:55:59
White?

or Pink?

 
Both are pretty good.
#2
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2819
  • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
  • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 14:56:38 (permalink)
but don't count as noise (well, maybe for the generation before us???)

GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
  +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
 
DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
#3
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2819
  • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
  • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 15:02:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BassDaddy 2016/12/07 22:03:48
timidi
I was going to try this as the phase issues with ARC are a big problem for me and was hoping the EQ match would remove the phase problems from the equation.
 



the phase issues derive from the steep EQ notching that ARC applies to flatten a room response which is not flat. so I would assume that a different EQ would run into same/similar phase issues ... don't know about a linear phase EQ but that have latency as another drawback.
 
practical solution: forget ARC. take a ton of good CDs and listen to them, in your room, in front of your speakers. very enjoyable. your brain will learn what sounds good right there where you mix (because it comes from incredibly good reference CDs) ... you will grow your own ARC in your head ...

GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
  +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
 
DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
#4
reginaldStjohn
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 485
  • Joined: 2011/01/15 23:42:50
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 16:46:18 (permalink)
I did something similar to what you are asking but in a bit different way.  I looked at the eq graph of the correction response (not using ARC but a similar program) and I used the global EQ on my interface to match the response the best I could.  I wasn't trying to get perfect just to match those areas that had large differences, especially in the low end. 

AMD Phenom II x6, 8 GB Ram, 2 Internal SATA III HD
Windows 10
Presonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Interface/Mixer
Cakewalk Sonar Platinum
Line6 Helix Guitar Processor 
Custom Made (El Bandito) Telecaster
LTD ESP EC-1000
PRS El Torrero SE
#5
daryl1968
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10984
  • Joined: 2010/06/01 22:51:43
  • Location: Englishman in deepest, darkest Wales
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 16:52:46 (permalink)
Hi Tim - I hope you are well.
I use an external rack mounted eq connected between my daw outputs and speakers that I have calibrated using a few choice well mixed CDs. Mainly I rolled off a bit of bottom end.
Bought the EQ used off Reverb.com and saved myself a few donuts. 
#6
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5449
  • Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
  • Location: SE Florida
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 21:51:08 (permalink)
Thanks guys.
Hi Daryl. I'm well. Thanks for asking. Hope all is well with you.
 
I'll give this a go in a couple of days.
post edited by timidi - 2016/12/09 12:14:57

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#7
BassDaddy
Max Output Level: -33 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4232
  • Joined: 2012/12/31 13:55:58
  • Location: I'm an American. From America!
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/07 22:09:43 (permalink)
Rob[atSound-Rehab]
timidi
I was going to try this as the phase issues with ARC are a big problem for me and was hoping the EQ match would remove the phase problems from the equation.
 



the phase issues derive from the steep EQ notching that ARC applies to flatten a room response which is not flat. so I would assume that a different EQ would run into same/similar phase issues ... don't know about a linear phase EQ but that have latency as another drawback.
 
practical solution: forget ARC. take a ton of good CDs and listen to them, in your room, in front of your speakers. very enjoyable. your brain will learn what sounds good right there where you mix (because it comes from incredibly good reference CDs) ... you will grow your own ARC in your head ...


That's just such a good thing to do. My ability to hear has improved so I need to give that a shot.

It's Bass, not Bass.
i7 2700K, 16GB DDR3, 2 SSD sample drives and OS drive, HDD SATAIII for projects, 2 24" monitors
Focusrite Saffire Pro 24, Focusrite VRM Box, LAVA Lamp, SONAR Platinum 64 bit, Mackie MCU and 1 MCU XT, Akai Advance 49, Windows 10,
Komplete 9 Ultimate, Cakewalk, Toontrack, IK, AAS, XLN, UVI, Air Music Tech, Waves Factory, Sample Tek and Sonivox VSTi's. Overloud, T-Racks, Audio Damage, D16, Nomad Factory, Waves Gold FX 
#8
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/08 13:01:31 (permalink)
What "phase issues" are you talking about?
 
And the way I like to think about this stuff is this:
 
The room is acting as a filter at the listening position, complete with frequency and phase changes and ringing. That's really exactly what's happening, with the speaker's response also factoring in. The trick is to create an inverse filter that doesn't make things worse when you move your listening position a little bit, and that's what ARC , EQ or any other form of digital room correction tries to do. And some things are easier to correct than others. 
 
Acoustic treatment and room design, OTOH, attempts to make the "room filter" less extreme.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#9
sven450
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 945
  • Joined: 2004/03/16 08:11:49
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/08 13:30:48 (permalink)
I also want to know more about these phase issues.  What are we talking about?

Sonar Platinum/Bandlab Sonar
Roland Octa-Capture            
Win 10 
i7 6700  16 Gig Ram
Some songs
Covers:  https://soundcloud.com/cygnuss/sets/covers
Originals:
 https://soundcloud.com/cygnuss/sets/originals
#10
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5449
  • Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
  • Location: SE Florida
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/08 13:33:59 (permalink)
drewfx1
What "phase issues" are you talking about?
 
And the way I like to think about this stuff is this:
 
The room is acting as a filter at the listening position, complete with frequency and phase changes and ringing. That's really exactly what's happening, with the speaker's response also factoring in. The trick is to create an inverse filter that doesn't make things worse when you move your listening position a little bit, and that's what ARC , EQ or any other form of digital room correction tries to do. And some things are easier to correct than others. 
 
Acoustic treatment and room design, OTOH, attempts to make the "room filter" less extreme.


  
"The phase issues" are an assumption on my part of anomalies in the sound that is just weird. I have seen various threads here and there regarding said 'phase issues' so I gravitated to that term as an explanation of the weirdness I hear when running ARC 1 or 2. 
 
I'm pretty sure there is no magic bullet here. My room is as corrected as it's going to get. Just trying to get some kind of usage from ARC2 before I shelve it (along with ARC1) and The $350 spent that got me there.
 
And yes, I use my ears from time to time.

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#11
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2819
  • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
  • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/08 13:34:29 (permalink)
drewfx1
What "phase issues" are you talking about?
 

 
THE phase issues that occur when equing heavily, which is what ARC does to "compensate" the room response.
 
 
drewfx1
And the way I like to think about this stuff is this:
 
The room is acting as a filter at the listening position, complete with frequency and phase changes and ringing. That's really exactly what's happening, with the speaker's response also factoring in. The trick is to create an inverse filter that doesn't make things worse when you move your listening position a little bit, and that's what ARC , EQ or any other form of digital room correction tries to do. And some things are easier to correct than others. 
 
Acoustic treatment and room design, OTOH, attempts to make the "room filter" less extreme.




Room treatment aims at balancing the room response by using absorbers tuned to proper frequencies in the right places i.e. it takes away energy at certain frequencies ... this is nothing like trying to create an inverse ...

GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
  +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
 
DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
#12
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/08 13:54:25 (permalink)
Rob[atSound-Rehab]
drewfx1
What "phase issues" are you talking about?
 

 
THE phase issues that occur when equing heavily, which is what ARC does to "compensate" the room response.

 
The room response already consists of both frequency and phase response changes. It is impossible to have a change in frequency response without also changing the phase response, regardless of whether it's in a room, in analog electronics or in DSP. IOW, the room is EQing heavily and phase response is messed up by this. Again, the room is just acting as a filter at the listening position.
 

drewfx1
And the way I like to think about this stuff is this:
 
The room is acting as a filter at the listening position, complete with frequency and phase changes and ringing. That's really exactly what's happening, with the speaker's response also factoring in. The trick is to create an inverse filter that doesn't make things worse when you move your listening position a little bit, and that's what ARC , EQ or any other form of digital room correction tries to do. And some things are easier to correct than others. 
 
Acoustic treatment and room design, OTOH, attempts to make the "room filter" less extreme.




Room treatment aims at balancing the room response by using absorbers tuned to proper frequencies in the right places i.e. it takes away energy at certain frequencies ... this is nothing like trying to create an inverse ...




Right. I said room correction is making the "room filter" less extreme at the listening position. OTOH = "On The Other Hand".

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#13
timidi
Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5449
  • Joined: 2006/04/11 12:55:15
  • Location: SE Florida
  • Status: offline
Re: another ARC thread 2016/12/12 21:12:34 (permalink)
Just an update.
I discovered the 
 “Combined L/R Correction” function  button.
Just listened briefly but it seems to have cleaned up things a lot as far as the phasing/stereo spread goes.
hurray.. 
 

ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
 
https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
 
#14
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1