Helpful ReplyHome studio recommendation needed

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occide
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2016/12/20 09:55:03 (permalink)

Home studio recommendation needed

Hi there!
 
tl;dr I'm looking for a home studio setup that is fun to use. I can totally see a scenario where I spend $1000 on the wrong stuff and stop making music right away cause it sounds bad. I'm not afraid in using a "complicated DAW" cause I've done that in the past for a while.
 
Please allow me to introduce myself with a quick "music" bio: I've been into making music for almost a decade back in the 90s/2000s. Back then I've used an old version of Cubase VST along side with some free plugins. I was pretty jealous towards a friend who had a complete home studio alongside with the recent Calkewalk, because I couldn't afford it. Unlike him I also made pretty bad music. :D
I stopped making music around the year 2005 because my wife and I started a family and I became selfemployed. So I totally lost track on whats' going on today, more than a decade later.
 
Now that I've settled and business is running well, but mainly due to the new "fair" pricing models of Cakewalk I'm considering to start with my old hobby again. I don't have a ton of money to spend so I'm interested in your opinions on what you think would be important for me.
 
What I own already:
- A very decent PC with an i7 6700k overclocked, 32GB of RAM, SSD, Terrabytes of storage and what not.
 
Main focus:
- I want to produce mainly "Minimal Dub" and "Ambient" music
- I don't need to record analogue music
- Want to go "all digital", I've sold most of my hardware and from my point of view most hardware would be pointless for me with the few exceptions mentioned below
- I want great sounding, virtual instruments with decent presets out-of-the-box
- Same for FX-plugins
- I know that I'm bad - so a good kind of "sound library" / premade midi loops is welcome
 
Nice-to-have:
- I want to be able to produce "jingles" / "intros" for Youtube videos as part of my main business
- I want to mix / post produce audio tracks for Youtube videos. Not sure if any of that's ever gonna happen anyway...
 
How should I split my budget?
- I need probably studio monitor speakers alongside with a fitting amp. Which budget monitors should I buy? Does the amp really matter for me?
- Do I need a separate sound card or can I go with the onboard sound chip (realtek)?
- Which version of Sonar would be good for me? I'd say "heck, Platinum, all the instruments" but I don't know if it's wise to spend most cash on that right away, especially cause of the "fluid upgrade possibilities" and I don't know if I really need platinum.
- I live in a noisy apartment so I don't know if "Mastering with headphones" is a thing - if so, please give hardware recommendations, too.
- EDIT: Do I need a keyboard? I'm not a very good keyboard player, more of a guitar player. Those small  2-octave-keyboards with some sampler-like pads seem appealing to me, but again I'm not sure if I really need that.
 
Thanks for your time and input and happy xmas holidays!
 
 
post edited by occide - 2016/12/20 10:29:59
#1
AT
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 10:12:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:13:07
Sonar Platinum will supply all your recording needs, soft synths and effects.
 
You could use your on board sound card but there is a good possibility that it won't play well with heavily processed music. For about $100 you can get a decent musical "interface" that is designed to work with music at low latency (the time it takes for the "sound card" to digitize sound, put it into the computer, process it and spit it back out.  You can always see if there is a problem before you put money into an interface.
 
Doing videos requires another program.
 
You will most likely need a monitoring system. Today, many speakers come with the amp built-in, but yes, the amp is part of the monitoring system and a low powered amp can cause spikes trying to reproduce large amplitude changes which blows speakers - not too much good power.  I can't mix on headphones (tho I check with them), but others do.  Good headphones start at $100+, which is less than speakers.
 
Keyboards are still the preferred method of inputting midi, as are the drum pads.  Can't go wrong with one of those little pups.  I use Novation, which cost a little more but I like the keybed.  If you are not a keyboard player and don't care you can save some money.
 
have fun.
 
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#2
Zargg
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 10:29:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:13:00
Hi, and welcome to this forum. As an owner of SONAR Platinum (lifetime), I can really recommend it. It has "all you need" to do what you are asking. But I also think you would be totally ok with Music CreatorHome Studio or Artist. For me, the biggest advantage of going with SONAR Platinum, is that you get lifetime updates, and it comes with a lot of bundled stuff (Melodyne, TH3, Vocal Sync, Drum Replacer, Rapture, Dimension Pro etc).
However, there are lots of free 3rd party plugins (some very good) that can be used in any version.
I would suggest that you get a dedicated Audio Interface, with proper ASIO drivers (Focusrite, Tascam, Presonus to mention a few). It will in my opinion give greater stability and latency.
I would also suggest getting a MIDI keyboard, as it will help workflow even if you are not a keyboard player (neither am I).
As for monitoring, there are even more choices than with AI's. I would do a search for active monitors, and fedback on them. Depending on your room size, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8". There are KRK, Presonus, Mackie, M-Audio, Yamaha, Behringer, Akai, Alesis, to name a few in the lower price bracket.  
I have a pair of Beyerdynamics DT770 that I am very pleased with, as well as a pair of AKG K240.
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#3
cparmerlee
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 10:43:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:56
If you are doing jingles or anything pop-oriented, good drums (even if low in the mix) make a real difference.  I just love Addictive Drums, which has lots of sounds, and loads of useful loops that can be customized.

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#4
Slugbaby
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 10:47:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:49
Sonar Platinum is great, as there's so much stuff included.  Some you will use right away, some you won't, and some you won't know how beneficial it is until you experiment.  The Addictive Drums, and other synths, might be worthwhile for purely "in the box" recording.
There's also the option to buy Sonar Artist or Professional (or Home Studio or Music Creator) and then upgrade to Sonar Platinum for whatever the upgrade cost is.
 
I started loooong ago with a different version of Home Studio than what's available now.  As my music and workflows changed, and from seeing the features discussed in this forum, I upgraded until I got to SPlat.
 
And as others have said, you'll want an audio interface (Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 has audio/midi and good drivers, but if you only want MIDI input, you can get a cheaper MIDI-USB interface with no audio options), and headphones and/or monitors.  I use Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro headphones (and headphone calibration from Sonarworks to balance the EQ problems inherent in headphones and Waves NT Virtual Room for panning concerns).

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 11:01:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:46
I will second (or third) the BeyerDynamic headphones. I have the 990 pro too, I also use the 770, they're basically the same except that the 770 is a closed design (very little sound passes into or out of the shell, useful when working with sensitive microphones or ambient noise) and the 990 is open (slightly better and more comfortable for mixing).

Also yes, get a dedicated audio interface that was built for this purpose. Not a Sound Blaster and not a Realtek chip. They're ok for occasional use when there are no other options but you'd get frustrated having to rely on it.

Also, unless you're 100 percent sure of stability, overclocking is not generally a great idea for audio systems. You'll be able to run plenty of stuff with a stock 6700K though.

Oh and honestly for your purpose I'd recommend Sonar Studio with Omnisphere, rather than Platinum.
#6
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 11:12:14 (permalink)
Ok thanks guys already for your answers, exactly what I was looking for.
 
So on the monitors again: Any specific recommendation? Pricing around $200, is that realistic? Consider that this will be a hobby for me mostly.
 
I also forgot to ask, are there any bundles that may fit my purpose? Like "soundcard + Sonar Software" bundle?
#7
pentimentosound
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 11:21:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:42
A lot of the old articles on home studios from Recording Mag and Electronic Musician, used to advise spending more on your monitors than pretty much anything else, like a 1/3 of your budget. The room is a big deal, too. So treatment is an area to explore. Even if you do everything direct, you still need to hear it well/accurately, etc. So, plan to listen on good phones, better speakers, and as many other reference systems (car, music store, a friend's etc), as you can. 
    Since you don't need a great mic, I'd focus on monitors, headphones, the DAW program, and a keyboard that allows you to find sounds quickly and has pads for tapping percussion and drums, like Arturia's KeyLab stuff. You might find one with usb to make things simple.
    You don't mention budget but if $400 can be spent on monitors, the JBL LSR308 (the LSR305's are less per pair)and the Equator D5's are excellent. Then in the headphone realm, check out the Audio Technica ATH-M50x. Sony MDR7506 are like $99 and those will work well, too. I also, really liked the AKG K240 and plan to replace my old ones.
    Depending on how much time you'll get to work on stuff, you might find you'll outgrow a "starter" level... upgrading is always an option. Got any pals that do this? If not, try to meet some at your local shops and visit them to see/hear "things in action". When I was about to buy my "biggest to date" monitors (after building two rooms for my studio), I walked into a Sam Ash in Chicago where about 8-9 guys were having a monitor shoot out and I knew right away which ones I wanted!
Best of luck! I'm sure you'll have a blast figuring it all out.
Happy Holidays to all!
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#8
jude77
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 11:24:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:38
It's been said more than once on this forum that SONAR has everything you need to make pro recordings as long as you know what you're doing.  Personally, I agree with that statement. 
 
To try and answer some of your questions:
1. Yes, you need monitors.  I'd recommend doing a google search for reviews and then hitting a local music store and see if you can audition a pair.  I'd recommend staying away from ported ones.  They have usually have node issues.  Hopefully Bitflipper (a regular here) will see this post and weigh in.  He knows that stuff in spades and could probably make recommendations by price.
2.  Unless you have a well-tuned room the amp you use probably won't make a lot of difference.  I'm sure others would disagree.  Just don't use a really crappy one.
3.  I think Ken (known as "Zarg" above) gave GREAT advice on what version of SONAR to get.
4.  As for mixing with 'phones: it's hard!!  If you just have to do it then check out this site: http://sonarworks.com/?gclid=COTG9N-Ug9ECFUk7gQod5UQOCw  They'll give you a fighting chance.  Basically they sell software that will make your headphones "flat" frequency wise. 
5. I would say you probably need a keyboard, but you could use midi-guitar software.  Here's a page that may help you with that decision:  http://www.jamorigin.com/
 
These are simply my opinions and others, who are more informed than I, can steer you better I'm sure. 
 
Lastly, stay plugged into this forum.  These guys here really know their stuff and are ALWAYS helpful and courteous, so keep posting questions as they come to you.
 
Best of luck with your music!!

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#9
scottfa
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 11:26:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:31
My approach would be a little different. I would demo a number of DAWs to see which one I preferred. Short list: Sonar, Reaper, Studio One. Maybe Cubase. Definitely get good closed set of headphones, I use the 770's. If your apartment is noisy how can you use monitors? I would use the Realtek to try stuff out and make a decision later. Maybe the Realrek would be good enough for your purposes. You will need a 49/61 keyboard. Ikmultimedia sells them with SampleTank included. Might be all you need for now.
IMO, getting the right DAW and headphones are the most important for you. After that, you can expand interface, and selection of synths.

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#10
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 14:21:05 (permalink)
Just to let you all know, I'm working intensely through all your posts trying to find what's right for me (while searching google and youtube for all the different features with limited success).
 
A quick one on the room: The "noisy" refers mostly to bad insulation and even worse neighbours. That basically means I myself have to keep the volume low most of the time. I've tried to overcome with cork + carped, some studio foam diffusers, thick curtains etc. so probably not the worst conditions either.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 14:27:08 (permalink)
I would definitely not recommend closed headphones in that case, they're really only necessary when you might get leakage around sensitive mics.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 15:57:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:16
Serious room treatment in a "noisy" apartment would likely cost thousands of dollars and violate your lease. My understanding of the limits of headphone mixing is that it is not that the phones cannot be made to have a "flat" frequency response, but rather that the experience of listening with isolated channels is significantly different than using speakers. In an untreated room, you will likely not find a place where the best speakers will produce a flat response at your ears either due to interference patterns of reflected sound. If your budget is limited, I would recommend spending a bit more on headphones, since in your situation this is likely going to be your most usable transducer. Cheap monitors in a cheap room will still give you better sound than the average listener will ever get when he hears your music. 
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mixing-headphones
 
The audio interface may be largely irrelevant in your setting. You describe a scenario in which it is only going to be used to play back the audio stream from your DAW. While your DAW may be handling dozens of tracks playing softsynths and effects, you are ultimately just sending a stereo out from the mains to the audio interface in most cases. That should be well within the capabilities of an onboard audio chip to play. An inexpensive USB with two outs and a good ASIO driver might be easier to configure, but you do not need high class stuff. A MIDI input is probably not necessary unless you have antique hardware to connect, most controllers use USB connections directly to the computer. The audio that you are recording is pristine digital stuff, and spending a lot for ultra-audiophile D/A convertors may make it sound better to your ears, but will not improve the recorded/computed sound at all.  
 
Since you are expecting mostly in the box work, you might want to save some cash to expand your synth library and buy loops if that is your thing. 
#13
Cactus Music
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/20 16:12:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:12:13
A lot of interfaces include LE versions of DAW software.The best thing about this is you can then use that vesion not only to see if you like it, but to upgrade to better versions. If you purchase a Tascam interface ( best bang for the buck) you'll get Sonar free. 
 
An Audio interface is the heart of any recording studio and to me the first thing I would purchase. Second item would be studio monitors. 
Then on my list would be a 49 note Keyboard controller ( or bigger) 
You can certainly demo most DAW's and I highly recommend you do that first before spending the $500. Studio one has a free versions that's way up there in functions. 

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#14
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/22 03:05:45 (permalink)
Quick update: You people here have been wonderful and helping me out a lot!
 
So I now bought Sonar Professional and I must say I'm overwhelmed. Also in terms of quantity but more in terms of QUALITY - Effects, Instrumets, the mixer, ... it's a dream come true. And that makes it a lot of fun, it's addictive.
 
With xmas around the corner I will take my time with ordering the hardware stuff. But one thing I still miss right now:
Midi Loops!
 
What about the loop packs from the Platinum version. Are those any good? Can you purchase them separately?
 
I've been digging around the internet and collected lots of freebies and midi teaser packs. But I have to say most of them where of bad "musical" quality. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, sure.
 
I didn't expect it to be that hard. Yeah, I can make my own tracks, and some of you may feel embarrassed for me, asking about premade loops. But please consider that I primarily want to have fun with Sonar, I wanna spend my time playing with sounds and plugins more than with the piano roll. I hope some of you can understand that. Be assured that I had more than 15 years of "proper musical instrument education" (guitar, flutes and trumpet), about 10 years of producing my own music, a few gigs and been listening on a daily basis to a super broad selection of music, electronic, metal, classical, scores, world music, etc. I made my choice consciously.   
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/22 03:17:47 (permalink)
Honestly I have never used any midi loops with the exception of Addictive Drums. I couldn't tell you for sure if they come with Platinum but I would expect them to be mostly audio. Since every instrument has vastly different expression and key ranges, I'm not sure "generic" midi loops make any sense. But there are instruments that provide loops as part of their package, or that create loops based on keys you press, e.g. Native Instruments Funk Guitarist or Action Strings, or the Strum Acoustic instrument provided with Sonar.
#16
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/22 03:48:18 (permalink)

 
For better understanding - this is from Magix Music Maker 2015, I got it as a freebie. The rest of the "DAW" is very limited (I didn't say awful) but I find this library really useful, especially when I want to play around with sounds. You can find drum or bass patterns with a click and just drag it on a track. Even content-wise the Magix Library isn't so bad, compared to the libraries I found on various websites.
 
I'd love to see that in Sonar, but I guess a well sorted library would also do. I know I won't get much love for asking about that, but this is a real time saver and much fun to play with. Also this would give beginners a head start. I could create one myself - and I'd rather do that than creating the same old drum patterns over and over again for years. I never wanna do that again. 
 
BTW: After playing with Sonar for a day I decided that my first step will be creating a handful of templates - something that was advertised to me during install. And I also can see the point of it. I've been creating channels with the same instruments and setups over and over again for years, this can take up to an hour easily.
#17
DrLumen
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/22 04:59:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/22 06:11:58
I too am an amateur so I think I understand your situation. I think some type of external interface is essential. While I don't record much, an external interface resolved some of the issues I was having with latency and general bugginess related to onboard sound chips or soundblaster cards. It also sounds much better (even though I got a cheap one)
 
I can understand the appeal of wanting to use midi loops but you may find it easier to find and work with acidized analog loops/clips. There are slews of analog loop libraries around. While they are not as flexible as midi they can always be used for ideas and quickly throwing together grooves. Some are better than others so YMMV. Anyway, you can recreate a loop in midi if you find it really useful and absolutely need the midi.
 
As an aside and one thing that I narrowly averted... be careful of anything mentioning Kontact. There is a kontact player (free) that supports some instruments and some instruments that only work in the full version of Kontact. The full version of Kontact is not cheap! Personally, I also REALLY dislike that the instrument has to phone home to kontact (ilok?) anytime I want to use it.

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#18
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/22 06:11:50 (permalink)
Well I looked at Kontakt and the whole new "ecosystem" of Steinberg, I totally agree with you. For the sakes of flexibility alone I wouldn't want to use any of their recent tools. I'm always on the move, try new things, split, combine, remix... I don't like things that are this rigid / static. It reminds me of Apples strategy. Then there's the price tag. No friend of that. The tools may be awesome, but I think there are alternatives that let me be more creative and dynamic. 
 
Analog loops just don't cut it for me, I've used them for years, but they are as well, static, I wanna move a note, or a whole bunch of them, or just keep the "groove". WIth analog loops I always ended up building my whole song around that one drum loop. Tools got a lot better, allowing me to use analog loops in a more flexible manner, beat slicers, time stretchers etc. so it may be worth it for me to see things in a new perspective. But thanks for your input on that anyway, I don't even know what "acidized analog loops" are, so I definitely will give it a shot.
#19
Cactus Music
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 00:36:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby occide 2016/12/23 02:58:54
You might want to check out our Software and the DEAL's forum here. I have gleened many great freebies by paying attention. Right now as example there is a free giveaway of Air Software at DJWORX. The file has so much content I have to wait until the end of the month as I'm sitting at 96% of my bandwith right now. I imagine a lot of it is midi loops. 

Johnny V  
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#20
occide
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 03:00:09 (permalink)
Cactus Music
You might want to check out our Software and the DEAL's forum here. I have gleened many great freebies by paying attention. Right now as example there is a free giveaway of Air Software at DJWORX. The file has so much content I have to wait until the end of the month as I'm sitting at 96% of my bandwith right now. I imagine a lot of it is midi loops. 


Thanks mate!!! Just place the order and get your key, I'll keep a copy for you in case you miss the time window.
#21
FLZapped
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 06:48:32 (permalink)
You mentioned monitors. Until the end of the year, Sweetwater has a deal on the JBL LSR308 monitors. If you don't need the bass extension of the 8" woofer, there is the 305 version...you can always add the matching subwoofer later. The JBLs took the audio world by storm when they were introduced.
 
-Bruce
#22
jpetersen
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 07:25:19 (permalink)
If you live in a noisy apartment, forget serious monitors at home. Switch between good headphones, iPod style ear plugs and cheap computer speakers. M-Audio sell "monitors" for around $100, the tweeter seems to be common in many TV bar speakers. Most of your audience will be listening over gear like that.
 
Once you have something you want to seriously publish, grab your laptop and just rent some studio time. Most are struggling and will probably be happy to give you an hour or so. Do your last tweaks there. Mostly it will be things like too much bass.
 
I have M-Audios, Adams, Neumanns and 8" Yamahas with a subwoofer, and yet when I go to my friend's proper studio, with sound damping and enough space for correct positioning, I still pick up something I missed. And he has the exact same 8" Yamaha speakers!
 
Oh, and don't forget: Listen over various car systems!
#23
cparmerlee
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 10:13:44 (permalink)
jpetersen
Mostly it will be things like too much bass.

Can you expand on this a little?  I feel like that is a mistake I have made often.  As I listen to music in carious places of various genres, on various equipment, I don't usually hear really thundering bass.  In fact, many times the bass is present, but not really out front in the mix.  Sometimes I have to listen carefully to hear exactly what the bass is playing.
 
Yet, when sitting at the DAW, I always seem drawn to bring up the bass.
 
Any thoughts about how to find the right balance, considering that people are listening on such a wide range of technologies?
 

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#24
Slugbaby
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 10:33:33 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
Any thoughts about how to find the right balance, considering that people are listening on such a wide range of technologies?
 


You need to find a baseline (no pun intended) for a flat frequency.  This is the best that a recording can do, considering we have no control over what listeners will use to play the music (anything from a costly studio setup down to 2 people sharing a pair of $10 earbuds).
 
I recently bought Sonarworks Headphone Reference software and a pair of headphones that are on their "tested models" list.  They have tested to see what frequences are changed, and basically have an EQ preset to compensate for the headphones' unique style.  In theory, this gives the user a flat baseline which will give a best average sound for recordings that will then be played on sources out of your control.
 
Sonarworks also has a "room compensator" that i've never used but should do the same thing.  In my old home, I used KRK Ergo, which measures the frequency responses from many points in the room, and then EQ's out the oddities to (in theory) give you that balanced room.
 
This is one of the hardest components of a recording, for me anyway, and probably the main reason that some musicians will still use a "pro" studio that's been designed for proper acoustic response (and costing a fortune to build).

http://www.MattSwiftMusic.com
 
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#25
abacab
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Re: Home studio recommendation needed 2016/12/23 11:29:03 (permalink)
occide

 
For better understanding - this is from Magix Music Maker 2015, I got it as a freebie. The rest of the "DAW" is very limited (I didn't say awful) but I find this library really useful, especially when I want to play around with sounds. You can find drum or bass patterns with a click and just drag it on a track. Even content-wise the Magix Library isn't so bad, compared to the libraries I found on various websites.
 
I'd love to see that in Sonar, but I guess a well sorted library would also do. I know I won't get much love for asking about that, but this is a real time saver and much fun to play with. Also this would give beginners a head start. I could create one myself - and I'd rather do that than creating the same old drum patterns over and over again for years. I never wanna do that again. 
 
BTW: After playing with Sonar for a day I decided that my first step will be creating a handful of templates - something that was advertised to me during install. And I also can see the point of it. I've been creating channels with the same instruments and setups over and over again for years, this can take up to an hour easily.


Take a look here at the instruments included with Sonar Professional:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Comparison.html
 
The instruments below include MIDI patterns, in different styles.  You pick the drum kit or instrument patch, then select one or more MIDI style patterns (MIDI loops) to "play the instrument".  Or play from your MIDI controller.
 
Session Drummer 3
Studio Instruments Suite (SI-Bass Guitar; SI-Electric Piano; SI-String Section)
 
You can drag any of these pattern into the Sonar track view to create a new MIDI track, where you can edit the MIDI pattern in the piano roll and mix them as desired.  You can also output any of these MIDI tracks to any virtual instrument you wish to trigger.
 
It seems that MIDI pattern files have not been forgotten, but as previously mentioned, they're most often supplied in the context of a specific instrument.  There are probably more available, so these are just a few examples that you already have available.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
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