Helpful ReplyImpact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10?

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arachnaut
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2017/01/12 17:49:36 (permalink)

Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10?

I know that's a weird posting title and this may be a sort-of long post, but I hope you read it closely as I've spent most of this year on this problem of compatibility and you may face something like this, too.
 
I use the NI Kore 2 software a lot in my work, but when the year started, I was having issues with it. I had some year-end purchases and lots of updates, so I figured on finding something to revert or fix there. I use Kore so frequently, at least once or twice a month, it would have to have been something rather new or I would have seen it earlier.
 
However, I had exactly the same issue on a laptop and my living room media computer. They are all different machines and had lots of different hardware running, but they all had Sonar and Kore 2 and the latest version of Windows 10 Pro. I built the desktop (Core i7) and living room media center (Core i5) a few years ago (5 or 6). The laptop is Core i5 and rather new. All have been stable. 
 
You can read about these things in this thread on the Kore forum at NI:
 
http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/kore-deep-freq-and-windows-10-crashes.313535/
 
I did lots of image restores and software re-installs in an attempt to isolate the problem; it has been a very painful year so far (insert crying smiley face icon here).
 
I think I finally solved it by setting Kore 2 standalone in Windows 7 compatibility mode. Since that works with the NIHardwareService rather intimately, I set it to be in Windows 7 compatibility mode, too. For about an hour I thrashed through that and think it solved the problem on my desktop and laptop. 
 
However, when you put the Kore VST in a DAW, it will run in the DAW compatibility mode because you can't change compatibility at the DLL level, only EXE.
 
So when I tested Kore in Sonar (and Live) it still failed until I change the compatability mode of Sonar and Live to use Windows 7 modes.
 
Now I have Sonar, Live, Kore 2 and NIHardwareService all changed to run in Windows 7 compatibility mode. It is possible that Windows 8 compatability would have worked, too, but I didn't try that.
 
I've run these DAWs in several ways with older projects and nothing seems broken at the moment, only time will tell. I rarely use Maschine or Komplete Kontrol, but as they use the NIHardwareService, I may need to change these and the other NI service for Komplete Kontrol... sigh.
 
I don't know exactly what these compatability modes mean. I think they pass flags to various APIs to alter the handling of some calls and internal branches. 
 
If this is truly the fix, and only time will tell, it may mean that we will all have to be careful about using older software as Windows 10 evolves.
 
For the record I have these versions (all 64-bit):
Windows 10 pro 1607 build 14393.693 (updated this week)
Sonar Platinum 2016.12 (updated a few weeks ago)
Live Suite 9.7.1 (from November 2016)
Kore 2 2.1.4.8329 (the last official release from Dec 2011)
NIHardwareService 2.0.2.150 (I think this came with the Maschine 2.5.6.2 update recently)
 
All the Sonar stuff is up-to-date according to CCC, NI stuff is all updated according to Native Access, etc. I try to keep everything tidy.
 
I hope this does not impact anything else. I'm likely to forget about this setting in a few months, so if something does surface later it could be a lot of trouble.
 
Windows used to have hardware profiles that would let you boot with different components, but there is nothing I know that would allow different compatibility modes to switch on demand.
 
I hope this helps someone else, I spent an enormous amount of time and lots of tears over this.
 
If anyone has ideas about what might happen using this mode with other stuff, or know more about how this works, I am eager to learn.
 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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microapp
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/12 19:12:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby arachnaut 2017/01/12 22:46:03
Here is a rather detailed explanation of compatibility mode
https://technet.microsoft...dd837644(v=ws.10).aspx
The gist is, compat mode may switch in a different DLL for certain functions or fake out the program to make it appear to be running on a previous Win version. It all depends on the program you are trying to runand how it was written.
What that means to your setup is, you kind of just have to try it (and research what others have done).
 
In my own experience, compat mode has been most useful for installation programs rather than actual applications.There are a few exceptions.  I have loads of older (win XP) engineering software which cost me thousands which run under 10.
I cannot think of any program I use which runs under 7 or 8.1 which refuses to run under Win 10.
Even lots of 7 and 8.1 drivers(signed)  seem to work (several had to be installed in compat mode).
Bottom line is, you have lots of gear and software. If you can get it stable in compat mode, go for it.
 

Sonar Platinum, Cubase Pro 8.5, Reaper 5, Studio One 2
Melodyne Studio 4, Finale 2012
I7-5820K 4.5GHz, 32 GB DDR4-2800,3 monitors,Win 10 Pro
Toshiba P75-A7100,l7-4900 2.4 Ghz/8MB Win 8.1 Pro
Tascam FW-1884, Emu 0404USB, CMC-AI,Axiom 61
Yamaha HS-50's, Sony SA-W2500, Sennheiser RS170's, ATH-M50
Ibanez Jem7VWH, RG-1570
Jackson DK2-S(Sustainiac),Les Paul Custom
Digitech Valve-FX, GFX-1,TSR-24,RP-90
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arachnaut
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/12 22:45:13 (permalink)
Thank you. I have independently discovered that discussion you posted in my searches as well as some code examples about the shim feature.
 
I'm hoping that someone at NI will take a look at this problem. Kore 2 uses the NIHardwareService, but that service is being enhanced for the newer Maschine and Komplete Kontrol line. I doubt if they regression test the service using older discontinued software. It is clear that there is no Kore support, but this is a bit different.
 
So far after about a day's work I have not seen any issues, and older Sonar X3 projects still load and run fine.
 
I wish it were as simple as running Resource Monitor in the background.
 
Kore 2 is very important to me. Reaktor and Kore are the most used music software in my room.
 
I could probably replicate the Kore programs I use with Guitar Rig, Reaktor, some Melda effects and Blue Cat's chainer, but it would take a long time and I'd rather be making sounds than software.
 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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arachnaut
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/13 12:00:06 (permalink)
I wanted to follow up with some technical stuff that I learned because this is complicated.
Firstly, I was wrong about NIHardwareService - no compatibility mode changes are needed, only Kore needs the change.
 
Secondly, I was trying to get a set of links to work that would automatically switch on or off compatibility modes based on a calling parameter. I found some interesting things about compatability mode.
 
This is mostly guesswork based on tests and observations.
 
Compatibility mode is handled by some sort of subsystem in a name cache somewhere, I think.
The compatibility mode is assigned to a file name (the full pathname) - it is not a file attribute saved somewhere in the file.
 
It does not persist when a file is renamed, but re-appears if you restore the old name. If you delete the file and restore it, it comes back. If you delete the file and create a new file with the same name, it will inherit the compatibility mode. I think you might have to restart to rebuild the cache. 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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arachnaut
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/13 12:14:09 (permalink)
I used ProcMon to find where the compatibility stuff is located. The cache is in the registry at:
 
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AppCompatFlags\
 
Interesting to see what is saved there for the various files. 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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arachnaut
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/13 12:20:05 (permalink)
Some VSTs that use authorization schemes seem to use the machine OS as part of the strategy, so if you change compatibility mode, I think the scheme's call to find the OS is faked, so the authorization fails.
 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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arachnaut
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Re: Impact of Compatability Mode (Win7) on Sonar in Win10? 2017/01/14 16:07:49 (permalink)
For the sake of thoroughness, and as l have invested a significant amount of time in this, I want to add two more points to this thread in case it helps someone else:
 
  1. when a program runs in a compatability mode, an environment variable is set. For example with Windows 7 compatability, I see: 
    __COMPAT_LAYER=Win7RTM DetectorsWin7
  2. Uninstalling and re-installing under a compatability mode will not change the compatability mode of the installed program. I did not see any difference in behavior when I performed that test.
 

- Jim Hurley -
SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0;  Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X;
GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61
64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither 
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