gprokap
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Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
Using an Asus Zenbook, Sonar plat, Focusrite Clarret Thunderbolt interface. Windows 10, 16 GB RAM, PCIe SSD drive, 4 core 2.6 GHZ I7 with Hyper thrreading.
I can play a guitar/bass through an amp sim no issue at all with a 32 sample buffer. Mostly TH3 and some other cheapware ones.
when running a synth through MIDI (USB controller, not using the MIDI in on the Focusrite if the polyphony of the synth goes above 8ish notes or so it kinda freaks out, snap crackle and poping noises. Not using greedy synth either, DM pro, True Pianos, Korg legacy stuff, all low-power synths.
The CPU meters in SONAR barely show any CPU activity. No other apps on the PC, AV turned off makes no difference, same with turbning off blue Tooth, wireless, and pretty much every Windows Service that isn't needed.
All works fine at a 64 sample buffer, which is playable and I can live with this if this is how it is.
But what throws me if is live instruments work fine at the 32 sample buffer - midi ones don't. Are there any optimizations I might have missed or settings in SONAR that would help?
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 13:14:59
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Have you tried a different midi interface or using the Focusrite midi in?
Also, does it still happen if you also enable input monitoring on a dummy audio track simultaneously?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 13:24:02
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You are running ASIO driver mode? Do the problems go away at 64 samples?
And, what are your reported latency values in Sonar Preferences?
I actually run at 128 samples, typically, though can usually get it down to 64 and sometimes 32, but 128 still gives me decent performance with no discernible latency lag, so I just normally leave it there.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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brundlefly
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 13:39:11
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Most synths will use more CPU the more polyphony is used (Truepianos which is partially 'modeled' definitely does), but this could also be a disk-streaming issue, epecially on a laptop with 5400rpm disks. If Performance meters are staying low, I would try increasing disk I/O buffer size. But if perf meters are going above about 60% and/or are extremely variable, you should check DPC latency. WiFi and Bluetooth drivers commonly cause DPC spikes that will wreak havoc with audio streaming at low latency.
Unless that interface has loads of hardware/firmware/bus latency, soft synths should be eminently 'playable' at buffers up to 128 samples or so.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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gprokap
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 14:19:28
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robert_e_bone
You are running ASIO driver mode? Do the problems go away at 64 samples?
And, what are your reported latency values in Sonar Preferences?
Asio yes, issues go away at 64. What's concerning me is Audio works fine at 32, and that's supposed to be greedier.
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gprokap
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 14:21:54
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brundlefly
Most synths will use more CPU the more polyphony is used (Truepianos which is partially 'modeled' definitely does), but this could also be a disk-streaming issue, epecially on a laptop with 5400rpm disks. If Performance meters are staying low, I would try increasing disk I/O buffer size. But if perf meters are going above about 60% and/or are extremely variable, you should check DPC latency. WiFi and Bluetooth drivers commonly cause DPC spikes that will wreak havoc with audio streaming at low latency.
PCIe SSD, what laptop in 2017 still has a 5400 RPM drive? CPU usage is BARELY above 1% - disk also shows no activity.
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gprokap
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 14:29:05
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Sanderxpander
Have you tried a different midi interface or using the Focusrite midi in?
Also, does it still happen if you also enable input monitoring on a dummy audio track simultaneously?
LOL . . . my cheap MIDI controller doesn't actually have MIDI out, USB only. I do have a set of MIDI Taurus pedals I can try by, hard to hit enough notes on that.
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brundlefly
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 15:29:05
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gprokap
PCIe SSD, what laptop in 2017 still has a 5400 RPM drive?
CPU usage is BARELY above 1% - disk also shows no activity.
Sorry; didn't read carefully enough. I'm not sure what else might be going on, then, but would still check DPC latency. I can play handfuls of sustained chords on TruePianos and Dim Pro at 32 - or even 16 - samples here so I know it's not an inherent limitation of SONAR or the synths you're using.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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abacab
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 15:38:09
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128 samples is probably a good starting point with soft synths.
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gprokap
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 16:05:54
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abacab
128 samples is probably a good starting point with soft synths.
Maybe using a USB interface on a 10 year old computer
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 16:35:17
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If problems go away at 64 samples I would just stick with that, should be well beneath noticeable latency. Laptops can be finicky with extremely low latency. I have similar specs to yours, just a faster CPU and an RME card and my laptop's Touchpad creates relatively high DPC latency. It could be the midi/USB driver in your case. It may even be USB 1, forcing the USB 3 port into legacy mode or whatever.
I'd be happy you run stable at 64 samples, that's better than many people do and doesn't give you any problems for tracking or live performance.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 16:37:25
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brundlefly
gprokap
PCIe SSD, what laptop in 2017 still has a 5400 RPM drive?
CPU usage is BARELY above 1% - disk also shows no activity.
Sorry; didn't read carefully enough. I'm not sure what else might be going on, then, but would still check DPC latency. I can play handfuls of sustained chords on TruePianos and Dim Pro at 32 - or even 16 - samples here so I know it's not an inherent limitation of SONAR or the synths you're using.
16 samples, really? Wow, what interface is that?
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brundlefly
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 16:42:19
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It's in my signature: MOTU 2408/PCIe-424.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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abacab
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 17:09:06
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gprokap
Using an Asus Zenbook, Sonar plat, Focusrite Clarret Thunderbolt interface. Windows 10, 16 GB RAM, PCIe SSD drive, 4 core 2.6 GHZ I7 with Hyper thrreading.
I can play a guitar/bass through an amp sim no issue at all with a 32 sample buffer. Mostly TH3 and some other cheapware ones.
when running a synth through MIDI (USB controller, not using the MIDI in on the Focusrite if the polyphony of the synth goes above 8ish notes or so it kinda freaks out, snap crackle and poping noises. Not using greedy synth either, DM pro, True Pianos, Korg legacy stuff, all low-power synths.
The CPU meters in SONAR barely show any CPU activity. No other apps on the PC, AV turned off makes no difference, same with turbning off blue Tooth, wireless, and pretty much every Windows Service that isn't needed.
All works fine at a 64 sample buffer, which is playable and I can live with this if this is how it is.
But what throws me if is live instruments work fine at the 32 sample buffer - midi ones don't. Are there any optimizations I might have missed or settings in SONAR that would help?
The answer is adjust the buffer up until you stop having problems. Then that is where you should run them. The breakups are occurring because your CPU is not keeping the audio buffer full at all times. All computers are different, and it is not just a matter of the interface type.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 17:12:52
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brundlefly
It's in my signature: MOTU 2408/PCIe-424.
Ah sorry, I'm usually on my phone on here and the mobile version doesn't show signatures. That's pretty amazing performance, what's your total roundtrip with that? Lowest I've managed on my FireFace UCX (without its excellent direct monitoring) is 2.9ms, which I already consider very good (especially since softsynth latency is even less than that).
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abacab
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 17:59:33
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This video has the very best explanation I have seen on real-time audio performance, and why it is not CPU dependent. At 8:15 in the video you will see a great graphic simulated animation of the buffer.
CPU Performance vs. Real-Time Performance in Digital Audio Workstations (DAW)
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abacab
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 18:02:37
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This is a good quick overview of the trade-offs between buffer size and plugins.
A Lesson on Buffer Size - Berklee
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brundlefly
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 18:29:22
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Sanderxpander
That's pretty amazing performance, what's your total roundtrip with that? Lowest I've managed on my FireFace UCX (without its excellent direct monitoring) is 2.9ms
121 samples = 2.5ms at 48kHz. That's including 44 samples of A/D/A conversion latency not reported to SONAR by the driver. If you're going by what's reported in SONAR, it's likely missing some 'hidden' hardware latency. You can measure the actual RTL with this free utility: http://centrance.com/downloads/ltu/
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 18:41:51
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The 2.9 is a real world figure too. That's at 44.1KHz btw. I do know RME uses really low latency converters though, 14 samples for AD and only 7 for AD. USB as opposed to PCIe makes it slower though.
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brundlefly
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/01/31 19:00:38
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Ah, I wasn't paying attention and thought that was the OP's RTL with the Focusrite. I know RME's performance is a cut above. Pretty amazing for USB.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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gprokap
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Re: Strange issue regarding soft synth at low latency.
2017/02/01 11:21:31
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Sanderxpander
16 samples, really? Wow, what interface is that?
Clarett also has 16 sample, but it's just awful. Maybe when the drivers get more mature on the Windows side.
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