At what point to apply mid-side processing?

Here ya go...
 
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/blog/tips-tutorials/2014/06/what-is-midside-processing.html
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/creative-midside-processing - for Ableton, but still good info here
 
http://www.soundonsound.c...ues/sonar-stereo-tools - Craig Anderton (circa 2009)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQ1SwSJ3YA - Mid-Side Processing in Sonar by forum member gswitz, I do believe

Cool. Thanks. I'll check it out!

Billy86

gcolbert
You have to capture a mid track and a side track when recording.  Basically two microphones pointed 90 degrees apart.  Did you do this or are you trying to apply something after the fact?
 
 
 

After.

If you want to process material using M-S processing but the material was not recorded using the M-S mic'ing technique, what you will be doing is "encoding" a stereo track, processing the M-S information and then "decoding" it again to play back in stereo.
 
... because you are starting with and processing a stereo track (not a bunch of mono tracks) it is a technique that lends itself to the mastering stage.
 
You can do it by setting up your own matrix of tracks and busses (3 tracks, 5 busses and a master ... with 1 track containing the original stereo source) or by using plugins to do it for you.
 

quantumeffect

Billy86

gcolbert
You have to capture a mid track and a side track when recording.  Basically two microphones pointed 90 degrees apart.  Did you do this or are you trying to apply something after the fact?

After.

If you want to process material using M-S processing but the material was not recorded using the M-S mic'ing technique, what you will be doing is "encoding" a stereo track, processing the M-S information and then "decoding" it again to play back in stereo.
 
... because you are starting with and processing a stereo track (not a bunch of mono tracks) it is a technique that lends itself to the mastering stage.
 
You can do it by setting up your own matrix of tracks and busses (3 tracks, 5 busses and a master ... with 1 track containing the original stereo source) or by using plugins to do it for you.
 

Thanks. I'd read about the encoder/decoder route (Voxengo offers a free one I'm going to explore). I just didn't have a mental model on how M/S worked or how to approach.

gswitz
Be cautioned that m/s gets used to describe two things...

First and most classically is a mic'ing technique that enables the ambient track to cancel completely from the sound when played on a mono system. This was most important when more than half of all listeners listened in mono. It is still commonly used and should be learned so you know it is a choice to be considered. This requires a figure eight patterned Mic and another.

The other meaning is for things like the lp EQ. Really, this is a goofy term for what is happening. People often don't realize how much it can help a mix to bring up the opposite channel, phase inverted, in the one channel and vice versa. Doing this with EQ can help reduce center volume and emphasize the differences in the tracks. This is usually done in the mastering stage.

These two things have very little to do with each other, but both result in polarity inverted material in opposing stereo tracks.

This means that both have significant canceling when played on a mono system.

Lastly, for the first type, no plugin is required. It is just a routing solution.

I'm afraid I don't understand the routing in a DIY scenario and I'm unclear on the phase issue, overall. I'm going to try a Waves Hybrid EQ that supports M/S processing with control over phase. How do you I approach that? Thanks so much.

Idk. It is tricky. Maybe I'm not creative enough in my thinking.

A stereo track is basically two mono tracks. When you raise the volume of one, phase inverted, in the other and vice versa, you will quiet the material that is shared between the tracks. The phase inverted material could be eq'd first.

I believe, but don't know, that this is what you are doing when you cut center mids during the vocal. This means that non centered mids from the other track probably show up, phase inverted in the same number of dB as the cut.

It is goofy. Maybe there is a better way to do this math. I'm probably underestimating the good people at cakewalk.

I'm suspicious of magic. I shouldn't be. There really are little wizard boys running around saving the world.

And spreading some phase inverted material between the channels can sound kinda cool.

It would be awesome if there was a center track, and a left and a right and that's how EQ was applied.

If I'm missing the way to sum two tracks to end up with only the center material, I'd love to learn how. Anyone?

But a pair of mono tracks however can be used to capture a stereo image e.g. from a stereo microphone or a pair of microphones (in a stereo configuration) or even a stereo synth output. A la the way Pro Tools does it. This can be useful because you can then pan each mono track (or L and R) to any position.
 
Stereo tracks though (or interleaved) are still easier to handle for most signals like this because you are only dealing with one thing as opposed to two.
 
Mid Side processing is interesting and useful if you want to treat the Mid and Sides component as separate identities and then after converting back to stereo it is possible to affect the centre or the outside (extreme L and R) sounds differently.
 
It saved my butt once in mastering. I was given a stereo recording a piano in a hall and it was just too roomy. Piano sounded too far away. After converting to M and S and turning the S component right down most of that room sound disappeared and the piano sounded much closer. Amazing in fact. Even through the end result was mono by applying some slight reverb of a much smaller room it was possible to massage it into a pretty decent result overall. i.e. a close piano sound with just a hint of room behind it. And that reverb was just enough to add some slight stereo imaging back into the close sound too.
 
M/S recording too is very cool. e.g. using a M/S configuration to make a stereo recording of an acoustic sound. The ability to manipulate the stereo width after the fact can sometimes be very useful indeed.