Audio Snap Issues

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JohnEgan
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2017/04/24 11:52:27 (permalink)

Audio Snap Issues

Good Day, 
 
Ive been recently trying to learn to use Audio Snap function, and been having some issues, and wondering if anyone else has seen or knows about this.
 
Ive installed latest 2017.03 version of Sonar PLT (i cant say if this is a factor, as I never really tried using Audio Snap before).
 
This seems to keep recurring consistently, basically about 5 to 10 minutes into a session, moving, creating, disabling markers and map editing, typical functions, Im assuming, also Im only working on a single track at a time 
 
 
- my display starts going all funky, i.e., sections of the display window, (inspector, tracks, control panel, will start to go blank, or black out, or flash on and off, I may or may not be able to select menus, save, or may loose ability to key save shortcut, and/or close program.
Ultimately it freezes up/crashes Sonar, requiring to close via Task Manager, or may possibly recover if I wait long enough, may or may not generate error report function, may or may not create a recovery file.
If Ive been able save, markers are in place as last seen when I reload project.  
 
Ive only so far have ever seen this issue using Audio Snap, any guidance would be appreciated.
 
  

John Egan
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#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    dcumpian
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/24 12:19:04 (permalink)
    I haven't used audio snap, but based on your symptoms, I have to ask if audio snap is creating a bunch of small clips? If so, try doing a section at a time and then bouncing the clips to a single clip. I've seen Sonar exhibit similar symptoms when I've done a lot of editing and have many clips.
     
    Regards,
    Dan

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    #2
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/24 12:31:39 (permalink)
    Yea as Dan points out, if you're using AS and having it split clips, it will create a ton of clips and cause problems. I find it better to NOT have it split clips and just move your markers where you want, allowing it to stretch/compress the audio. Then do a bounce to clips to render it correctly. 
     
    gabo

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    #3
    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/24 17:54:42 (permalink)
    dcumpian
    I haven't used audio snap, but based on your symptoms, I have to ask if audio snap is creating a bunch of small clips? If so, try doing a section at a time and then bouncing the clips to a single clip. I've seen Sonar exhibit similar symptoms when I've done a lot of editing and have many clips.

     
    Thanks for replies, Dan, and Gabo,
     
    I thought something like this, but the thing is, Im not choosing to split beats into clips, and also even tried working with only 8 bars, at a time, which Im taking out of source track, into its own track, applied trimming, so its only those eight bars and yet it still seems to do this eventually. To start with its only 1 guitar, 1 bass, 1 vocal track about 105 measures, at about 110 (so quite small project, and only so far only working on bass track (with no FX on this track either), considering its supposed to work across multiple tracks, seems odd, also my PC is somewhat substantial, so this shouldn't be an issue. Since Im just learning, and experimenting is why Im taking a long time with each clip, but not doing anything to radical, I dont think). 
    Its almost like as though after a certain time period pass's (as in time of day), it decides to crap out, not necessarily because of what Im doing (Teamster possibly?). LOL
    (guess Ill stick with Melodyne when trying to do this).
     
    Cheers
    John
     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by JohnEgan - 2017/04/24 20:10:33

    John Egan
    Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64,  O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(,  in the yard).
     
    #4
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 01:09:26 (permalink)
     
    So are you using AS to tighten up the performance? If you are, are you going to the clips and doing a "bounce to clips" on the track when you're done? Once you've stretched and moved around things with AS that's the way you "render" the track so it uses the offline algorithm to apply the edits. If you're just stretching them and leaving them like that, it could be causing the problem.
     
    gabo

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    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 03:49:37 (permalink)
    gbowling 
    So are you using AS to tighten up the performance?  
    gabo



    Yeah pretty much, this is scenario,
     
    Its kinda of a one off recording, of a random jam/party, with no drums or time to establish click bpm, (i.e., songs were pretty much written or improvised live at the time, I just hit record and let it run for jam duration) with a bass, and a acoustic guitar/vocalist, so, tempo drifts a bit as well as guitar and bass being a bit out of sync in places, (not the most accomplished musicians, LOL), I had separated various songs from the jam night into separate project files to work with.  Anyway just I wanted to establish constant tempo, tighten up and add VI drums, just to have the basic structure demo/example of the song(s), for posterity or future recording properly, (family from out of town).
     
    I figured it may be a challenging exercise to try and learn to use AS, apparently so, lol. So once this issue started, I did start bouncing, every few changes, then went back with AS to continue where I left off, again if I took too long, or made too many changes before bouncing issue would happen again. Then I tried to just pull out one verse, and chorus parts, separately, sync them separately, bounce them, then splice back together into full song, I was more or less successful, but somewhat of more of an ordeal, then I expected to have to do. LOL.
     
    Cheers
    John        

    John Egan
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    #6
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 14:42:07 (permalink)
    Yea that's not right. Especially if you have a large computer with all the updates. I notice you use an RME UFX (that's what I have as well) so the driver for that are rock solid. The hardware drivers on some of the lower cost interfaces can cause these problems. 
     
    I can pretty much do an entire track without any issues, then do a bounce at the end. I have 32gig ram and an I7 processor and it hardly blips to do these.
     
    So, if you're got all your drivers up to date, are using the RME interface, have the latest version of sonar platinum, and have a reasonable computer, you shouldn't be having this much trouble. 
     
    Since the display seems to go whacky on you, maybe it's a display driver or video card that's causing this issue? Be worth a try to do some checking on your video drivers and see if that does anything to help. 
     
    gabo

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    Anderton
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 15:01:28 (permalink)
    gbowling
    Since the display seems to go whacky on you, maybe it's a display driver or video card that's causing this issue? Be worth a try to do some checking on your video drivers and see if that does anything to help. 

     
    My thought as well. I've had some outlier issues that could be traced back to video.
     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #8
    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 16:01:04 (permalink)
    Anderton
    gbowling
    Since the display seems to go whacky on you, maybe it's a display driver or video card that's causing this issue? Be worth a try to do some checking on your video drivers and see if that does anything to help. 

    My thought as well. I've had some outlier issues that could be traced back to video



    k thanks, Gabo and Craig,  
     
    Video card is NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 (2 Gig), they're doing driver updates constantly, I think just last week one came, Ill see if I can find any video card diagnostics I could run. 
     
    Otherwise, Im still using Win7, recently updated also, any chance that's an issue? (i.e. time to go to Win10?, Ive been dreading/procrastinating doing that still. LOL)   
     
    Cheers
    John 

    John Egan
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    #9
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 20:05:56 (permalink)
    win7 should be ok.
     
    I have a GTX 970M. But since I have a laptop, I also have an integrated graphics processor. For the nvidia, there are a bunch of settings in there that can affect things. For sonar you really don't need any advanced GPU stuff.
     
    So under "adjust image settings" I have "let the 3d application decide"
    under "manage 3d settings" I have "auto select" for the preferred graphics processor and under the "programs settings" tab if I find sonar it's listed as using only the integrated graphics processor. So I'm not really using my nvidia for sonar.
     
    In the "set PhysX configuration" my laptop display is set to use my onboard graphics.
     
    gabo
     

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    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 21:05:11 (permalink)
    K thanks, 
     
    So under "adjust image settings" I have "let the 3d application decide" --  Same 
    under "manage 3d settings" I have "auto select" for the preferred graphics processor, -- I dont have another/integrated GPU on my motherboard
    and under the "programs settings" tab if I find sonar it's listed as using only the integrated graphics processor.
    -- I didn't find Sonar,  but added to the list  
    I guess only other thing is 
    I have a 32" Samsung LED (TV) for monitor, using HDMI from NVIDIA for video, sometimes use a second monitor but dont always use it, usually to display RME TotalMix mixer when recording.
     
    Otherwise, (when I have time) Im working on small clips in separate tracks for now, and saving and bouncing often, , as I didn't really intend to spend this much time trying fix these tracks, (got lots of good recordings to work on and produce. LOL), but also a learning process. Will let you and forum know if I find out what's causing these issues.
     
    I really appreciate your efforts to help out
    Cheers 

    John Egan
    Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64,  O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(,  in the yard).
     
    #11
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/25 21:27:54 (permalink)
    Yea no worries. And trying to fix these on little projects is the best way, because they bite a lot harder when you're in a big project!
     
    gabo

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    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/27 12:31:22 (permalink)
     
    Good Day,
     
    So what Ive found if anyone's interested is if while moving Transient Markers, with Audio Snap palette open and Edit Clip Map also selected, to also align these markers while advancing through track, at some point this will cause my video display issues to start, and eventually cause Sonar to crash (at least on my system), If I just adjust Transient Markers I dont crash, but then map markers may not be aligned properly. However what I also found, perhaps because of how tempo varies, in trying to align transient markers alone, and advancing through track eventually transient markers will lock and wont allow me to move them further back (towards start of track) in time. I guess there's some limit between how far apart transient markers can be moved?
    For now that's as far as gone, (to limit my stress levels, LOL) 
     
    Cheers     

    John Egan
    Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64,  O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(,  in the yard).
     
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    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/27 18:30:00 (permalink)
    At least some positives in there. There are limits as to how far you can move a transient. As you move a transient, it compresses against the transient you're moving towards and expands from the transient you're moving away from. You obviously can't cross another transient and there are limits as to how much you can "smash" or "expand." So yes, you must have some really out of whack audio. 
     
    So a couple of things. You mentioned this is just sort of a free form jam. Do you have the project tempo set close to what that jam is? There are several places on the web where you can "tap the tempo" to get an average tempo. 
     
    Also, for this type of stuff I usually do it in multiple passes. First pass.. Find the "1 beats" and disable all the other transients, maybe even every other "1 beat." then move those "1 beats" to the proper place. That will get the rest lined up enough to go back through another pass and tighten up the measures.
     
    gabo

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    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/28 00:56:55 (permalink)
    gbowling
    At least some positives in there.  



    Good Day,
     
    Yea, so without edit clip map on, it doesn't crash, so I restarted from scratch, Ive got both guitar and bass audio transients on, so I can move in reference to each other, while listening, I used an average tempo from Audio Snap, (also checked in Melodyne), to have a click track reference also as I go through. So I guess initially first times through I moved some markers radically, so actually not too far out whack, LOL, so Im not having that marker distance issue now either. So Ill try like you said, making a few passes with threshold adjusted. Im about half way through one song, with no crashes, had to go out today, so will get back to it later after hockey game LOL.,   
     
    Thanks again for your continued support  
    Cheers 
    John

    John Egan
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    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/28 12:04:14 (permalink)
    Sounds good, just FYI I find the average tempo from AS to not be very good. It will show the wrong tempo for a track that has been played to a click and lines up to the grid! haha. Melodyne does a better job, but I still generally check it by doing a tap to tempo. It's a tricky thing to do, I've done it many times on free form live performances. 
     
    I have been doing something recently that was similar that was interesting. We had a bunch of old cassette tapes from the 70s and 80s with practice sessions of our band. The songs were all originals and we wanted to make good recordings of them. But we wanted to keep the same old feel and timing. Many of the songs we had forgotten and hadn't played in years.
     
    So I transferred the cassette tapes to digital and separated them out. Sorted out the tempos and imported them into sonar projects. Then I used AS, similar to what you're doing, to align the old recording to the grid. So we have a track with the old song played in time with the project tempo.
     
    We're using this track as a guide to re-record all the individual tracks of the song. Playing along with the old song track. When we're doing with recording we mute the old song track.
     
    It's worked perfectly to re-create the old songs with the same feel and tempo while generating a rock solid modern recording of it.  Sort of the ultimate remaster!
     
    We have over 30 songs like this, so I've done this AS thing quite a bit..
     
    gabo

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    JohnEgan
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/28 17:00:16 (permalink)
    gbowling
    I find the average tempo from AS to not be very good. 



    Yeh, I noticed that, with this one there's a number of "averages" to varying tempo, more so with guitar and about half what bass shows (its quite a bouncy active bass line, to a kinda choppy rhythm guitar, this one song is quite "original" LOL), so I fit it to the higher tempo click, (approximately 60 or 120 bpm) that seems to suite song.
     
     
    Anyway, interesting what you've done/doing with old recordings, Ive had some friends asking to do similar with their old cassette recordings, seems like quite a time intensive task, I guess your more inspired when its your own band. (or being paid, LOL).
     
    Cheers   

    John Egan
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    #17
    gbowling
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    Re: Audio Snap Issues 2017/04/28 17:19:24 (permalink)
    JohnEgan
    I guess your more inspired when its your own band. (or being paid, LOL).



    Very true!!
    gabo

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