Using Cakewalk Sonar Platinum 64bit RC doesn't play the first notes of the loop

On 2017-05-03 18:11, Darrell Harrison wrote:
Hello Attila
I’m using Cakewalk Sonar Platinum 64bit and Windows 10 64bit.
Running  Rapidcomposer  Beta v3.3b6  as a plugin in Sonar.
RC doesn't play the first notes of the loop. It does so the first run through but not subsequent ones it does not play the first notes in the first measure of loop.
Am I doing sometimes wrong how do I fix it?
 
Thanks Darrell
Hi Darrell,

thank you for reporting this problem.
I have downloaded SONAR Demo and made lots of tests.
At the moment I am writing a bug report to Cakewalk because this is a bug in Sonar. What happens is that the RapidComposer plug-in has no chance to realize that a loop ended. Cakewalk does not send the loop ending point, but this would not be a problem. However when the loop ends Cakewalk does not signal that this just a partial buffer, and RC should jump to the beginning, it asks rendering past the loop end point, and in the next buffer it requests samples from PPQ position 0.011 so RC has not enough information to realize when to render from position zero. My advise: use 120 BPM where a beat includes integer number of buffers (depending on your buffer size of course). That way no notes will be lost at the beginning.

I'll let you know if something happens. But don't hold your breath, I already sent a bug report to Cakewalk in 2014 about loop issues...

I have tried that did work.
 
Thanks 

Merged with previous report.
 
According to your msg #3 above, adjusting the MIDI prepare buffer fixed the problem.

Pretty simple for the developer of a beta product to say "It's a SONAR bug", based on how he thinks looping SHOULD work in the host to accommodate his plug.
Here - It's a Rapid Composer Beta problem - yes, that WAS easy.
(Sorry) - While I don't have Rapid Composer, I use a number of midi sequencing plugs in SONAR which rely in looping accuracy and I don't have any problems. FWIW. I know it's apples to oranges.
FWIW, have you tried rolling back your version of Rapid Composer to the last stable (NON-BETA) release? And/or have you tried the Beta in a previous version of SONAR?
When you say it didn't work, have you tried larger buffer settings per Gustabo's recommendation, or only 500?

I will check those setting. 
 
do they apply when using  VST plugin?
 

While there may be some argument that SONAR isn't doing what Rapid Composer expects, since I can reproduce this bug not only in SONAR (2017.06) but also in the most recent version of Reaper v5.40, I'm thinking Rapid Composer needs to handle the playback buffer looping around better.
 
In Reaper, load Rapid Composer and another synth (to play the sounds).  Create a two bar phrase in Rapid Composer.  In Repear set it to loop the first two bars.  When you play it the first time through the first note sounds.  The second time, on the loop, that first note in bar 1 doesn't sound.  Exactly how it works in SONAR.
 
Rapid Composer needs to handle this I think.

Given Reaper and SONAR both work the exact same way there is very little chance this is a SONAR bug.  Rather it is an issue plugins have to deal with.  It may not be easy to deal with, plugins may not like it, but that is the breaks.  Bug reports are forwarded to development by SONAR front-end support all the time, but that's not the same thing as Cakewalk acknowledging the bug and agreeing to fix it.
 
Addictive Drums 2's MIDI loops playback works correctly and doesn't miss notes at the beginning of a loop, so it is possible for a plugin to do this.  (I'm noting AD2 because it works very much like Rapid Composer's plugin, hosting its own MIDI sequencer).
 
Attila (Rapid Composer developer) is a great guy and he is working very hard at making Rapid Composer pretty awesome, I've reported and gotten fixes numerous bugs over the years.  But I think on this one, he is wrong.  With two completely different DAWs acting the exact same way, he may need to rework how he handles the time stream.
 
SONAR does have issues with how it does looping, it messes up video playback on a loop more often than not, which drives me nuts (and is a SONAR issue).   But with SONAR and Reaper acting the same way, I think Rapid Composer may need to be the one that changes.
 

msorrels
Just tried it with Ableton Live 9 Lite, and it does the same thing there too.  That's 3 DAWs Rapid Composer's looping doesn't work right in.

That is quite solid argument
Even if VST host side interpretation has problems in all 3 DAWS, I guess Rapid Composer has to adopt to them...
 
But sometimes people try to be puristic: M-Audio Code, iCon, Behringer Motör and most other "forgot" to implement Mackie handshake. All other DAWs have decided to adopt, while Sonar still does not work with them blaming other side for the fault
 

dgh97
I will check those setting. 
 
do they apply when using  VST plugin?

When that setting is active, Sonar is sending MIDI note even in case it is started before loop in. So, with this option set, moved a bit right loop still play the first note in all VSTi. But I guess that will not help Rapid Composer. What can help, is moving "loop in" several ticks left before the measure.

You can easily add free version of Tracktion to the list (I do not have Rapid Composer)
 
While Steinberg have done rather good job with VST in general (way better then still used by Cakewalk DX way which in its ground basis has unsolvable problems... mentioned in this thread "prepare size" is one of the consequences), how MIDI should be output is a bit fussy in VST SDK. I went throw the documentation and examples several times and still could not understand the intention. Most natural place (for me) to propagate MIDI events simply does not work at all. Proposed by SDK way works, but at least in Sonar that "shift" events toward the next ASIO buffer and sometimes introduce some other weird microshifts. 

by musicdevelopments; Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:20 pm Re: v3 Beta Feedback And Discussion (Bugs, Features, Suggestions)

msorrels wrote:I'm not holding my breath on Cakewalk actually fixing SONARs looping problem. They have improved a lot with the monthly updates but they still seem reluctant to address many of the long standing issues that continue to plaque it.

I know what you mean. A few years ago I contacted them about a similar bug but I did not get a reply. However recently the Cakewalk engineers are very responsive and they seemed to take my bug report seriously. I am optimistic about this bug will be taken care of.

Attila

by musicdevelopments; Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:01 am Re: v3 Beta Feedback And Discussion (Bugs, Features, Suggestions)

msorrels wrote:I'm still seeing the loop bug in SONAR, but it does seem to work correctly in Reaper now.

According to the latest info: Cakewalk will include a fix in the next version of Sonar. That is all I know. I do not know which version, and when.

Thanks,
Attila

Sonar Platinum 64bit Rapidcomposer  doesn't play the first notes of the loop. Please fix this problem Been waiting  3 YEAR!!
 
 
by musicdevelopments; Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:01 am Re: v3 Beta Feedback And Discussion (Bugs, Features, Suggestions)

msorrels wrote:I'm still seeing the loop bug in SONAR, but it does seem to work correctly in Reaper now.

According to the latest info: Cakewalk will include a fix in the next version of Sonar. That is all I know. I do not know which version, and when.

Thanks,
Attila

Sorry. just trying to find a listening ear that will get a 3 year old 
problem fix. I didn't mean any harm.

In SONAR, Edit->Preferences pick the MIDI->Playback and Recording selection.  At the bottom is a Playback section with "Prepare Using XXX Millisecond buffers"  set this to a much larger number than the default.  I use 2500 because I got tired of messing with it.  The side effect of the larger number appears to be a delay when using MIDI effects.
 

Thanks for the quick reply. I tried it but the issue is still not resolved.