Helpful ReplyCan anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters?

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LJB
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2017/06/01 11:10:33 (permalink)

Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters?

I was talking to a top engineer friend of mine and we were discussing the merits of spending $2000 on a stereo DA converter versus running straight out of a good desk such as a Yamaha digital console (he has a DM2000, I use an 01V96 V2 as a router/patchbay/monitor system).
 
Any real-world experience here to share with me? Love to hear your thoughts.
 
Ludwig

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#1
fireberd
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 12:09:13 (permalink)
There can and are differences.  Whether they can be heard is questionable comparing high quality to same.  But technically the number of bit conversion for one can affect the fidelity.  The analog amplifiers are another.  Signal to noise ratio, etc. 

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gswitz
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 12:16:12 (permalink)
Usually preamps are involved as well. I can definitely hear differences between preamps. I've never taken the time to try to hear differences between converters where differences are isolated to the converters. I can try with my gear. Use the same preamp and run it to two different converters. I can't imagine caring too much about this. In general, all my converters are better than my Mics. If they add any noise, it will be lost miles beneath the noise floor of the Mics.

Features matter. The DigiCheck and TotalMix of RME are awesome. Auto level features differ. Onboard effects matter.

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I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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LJB
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 12:33:45 (permalink)
That's what I reckon too - I can't imagine spending $2000 on a DAC is going to do anything except give you something to justify to your buddies! :O)
 
 

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#4
batsbrew
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 14:06:52 (permalink)
ABSOLUTELY there are differences, 
that can easily be heard,
on a good monitoring system.
 
if your room and monitors aren't up to snuff,
it wont be as obvious.
 
if there were no differences,
surely the pros would not be spending top dollar on their converters...
 
but they do.
 

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#5
AT
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 14:19:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Beagle 2017/06/01 21:08:27
Most modern converters are very good - even the cheap ones.  The chips inside are mostly the same, although the other analog components are better and worse - which seems to have as much to do w/ longevity of the unit as sound.
 
Many moons ago I was disappointed when I switched from a Presonus Firepod to a TC Konnket.  Of course, as above, I was also listening through the pres, too (comparing acoustic recordings).  There was a difference, but small, and I assume a lot of that was the better pres.  I assumed there should be an obvious difference that would jump out - "like a veil was lifted" sentiment.
 
Later when I stepped up to TASCAM UH-7000s I could hear a difference or maybe as one gets older one's hearing gets better (or you just learn what to listen for?).  I was brighter - which isn't always a great thing - on some old-style songs the darker presonus sounded better since it better fit a low fi, old style music (or it didn't bother me).  And there is littler difference between the 7000 and the TASCAM US series.
 
Converters would be the last thing I'd worry about, unless I had the extra funds for a Burl or other top notch converter.  Even then that would be more of a marketing (or feel-good-about-yourself) thing than actual music making.
 
 

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interpolated
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 14:31:11 (permalink)
It's music tech equivalent of unicorn and fairy dust. You probably won't notice any but it might be there......;-)
 
Well isn't it industry standard quality and results. You might hate the Apple product but you know what the quality should be like. Just for the record I use Android.
 

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batsbrew
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 15:54:50 (permalink)
boy, did i hear the difference when i upgraded from my pcie card (maudio audiophile 192) to the rme babyface pro.
 

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#8
interpolated
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 16:28:00 (permalink)
You get what you pay for. Reduced jitter when converting from digital to analogue and vice versus. However anything done in the daw should sound the same after it has been recorded in the digital domain regardless of sound device.

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Amicus717
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 16:54:50 (permalink)
I also noticed a very big difference when I moved to an original RME Babyface, versus the ESI Juli@ I was running before.
 
The Juli@ is a perfectly decent card and very useable and stable. But the RME -- even an older unit like my original Babyface -- sounds significantly better, and in particular, I found it much easier to do a final mix on it. Everything just sits easier, and blends better, and placing instruments in the stereo field is way easier on the RME than it ever was on the Juli@.   

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Kev999
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 23:07:32 (permalink)
There is a vast difference in quality between my old Line6 UX2 and my current Audient iD22. But it's not possible to say whether it's all due to the quality of the analog circuitry or how much the actual DACs make a difference.

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Leadfoot
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/01 23:43:18 (permalink)
I definitely heard quite a difference when I switched from my M-Audio Delta 1010 to the Audient iD22.
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Eddie TX
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/02 00:51:37 (permalink)
If you guys keep saying you heard a difference between two interfaces, you might be paid a visit from the Bias Police! 
 
But seriously, as with any type of gear, there's a law of diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain level of quality, which these days doesn't require a lot of cash, improving the sound incrementally gets more and more expensive. Going from a SoundBlaster to an Apollo, for instance, should result in a huge difference. But comparing the Apollo to a Prism or Lavry, any difference might be harder to discern, depending on your monitoring rig.
 
Not having heard the Yamaha console mentioned by the OP, I can't say whether an outboard DAC would be worthwhile. Would be interesting to try, though. See if you can borrow a $2000 Mytek or Bryston DAC, and judge for yourself.
 
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batsbrew
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/02 14:02:47 (permalink)
YEA,
I say if you can't hear the diff (between a low end model and a mid to high end model)
then maybe your ears aren't up to snuff!
 

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Zargg
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/04 09:36:03 (permalink)
Hi. I heard such big a difference from my old Echo Audiofire 8, to my RME Ucx, that I thought something was wrong.
Of course they were manufactured with almost 15 years between them. Might have something to do with it..
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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Pragi
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/04 10:08:31 (permalink)
I notice a difference between my actual 2 interfaces- focusrite saffire pro 40  ( studio )and the steinberg ur 22 (laptop-mobil).
The difference is not as big as taking the step 10 years ago from my  m-audio 24/96
to the saffire 40.
It´s a good question if  a high end DAC delivers a much better sound as a top 
interface (RME,UAD aso).
Cannot answer that cause I never felt the need for a DAC.
 
Still very satisfied with the sound of the pro 40.
 
#16
Sycraft
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/04 19:57:53 (permalink)
Between the converters themselves? Probably not. Just about any converter these days has gone way beyond the limits of audibility. However between the implementation? Possibly. There's a lot of room to do a suboptimal implementation of all the stuff surrounding a DAC. Remember that the DAC chip itself is only one of a number of components needed to get the signal up to line level. Also there can be issues with matching the output to the device you are feeding, and problems getting introduced that way. For example if a DAC has too low a signal, maybe you have to drive the preamps on your monitors harder than they like, and they introduce noise because of it. Or the signal is too hot and you have to attenuate it, but the attenuator has non-linearities at low settings (they often do) and you get a channel imbalance for it.
 
Those are just simple examples, there is plenty else that could potentially happen.
 
So what you are getting with a good expensive, properly designed, DAC like a Benchmark 2 is basically insurance/peace of mind. You know that they did a really good job on the design and implementation, can check the measurements to back that up, and it has the flexibility to be adjusted as needed for whatever it is feeding. You eliminate it as a potential source of issues.
 
In many cases, it won't be audibly different. It certainly isn't something I'd prioritize spending money on (I don't have one), but if you have a really good setup, I can see the appeal to make sure that it isn't an issue.
 
If you do want something like that though, make sure to get one that is verifiably well designed, meaning they have taken, and are willing to show you, the measurements. If a company says it was "designed by ear" and is light on technical details, go elsewhere. We can measure WAY more accurate than we can hear, and we can use measurements to spot problems that only appear in edge cases. I'm a fan of Benchmark for that reason, they provide you with a ton of detail (and you can get more if you ask).
 
Finally you can always try the gold scientific standard of the blind test if you can get a place that'll do a money-back in studio test on the DAC and get a friend to help you. See if you can reliably hear a difference when you don't know which is which. If you can't, then send the DAC back :).
#17
Sanderxpander
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/06 16:02:39 (permalink)
I don't know if it's the DAC, ADC, clock or the op amps or whatever but for the three interfaces I've used most (E-MU 1820M, M-Audio Fast Track Pro and RME Fireface UCX) I can definitely tell a difference. Maybe even identify them with the same recording on all three. The E-MU is pretty decent but rather bright, the M-Audio sounds almost "dead" or "flat" by comparison and the RME is the most neutral with the tightest bass.

So I know these differences exist, even if in this case there is a pretty big difference in both price and manufacturing date. It certainly makes me cautious of using budget devices for anything half serious I'd be doing.
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brconflict
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/14 20:52:52 (permalink)
I can say I've heard some differences, but here's one thing to consider.

Take, for example, listening to a great D/A vs. an inexpensive D/A on on a stormy night. While on any normal day, you mightn't hear any real difference, it could be possible that the less expensive D/A might exhibit some unforeseen glitches from lightning.

The differences of good/great D/A converters is usually pretty minimal at normal sampling rates. Clocking is incredibly important for accuracy in transients and for the purest, glitch-free passages. It's even more important for higher sampling rates. Also, the circuitry around the D/A conversion process may color the sound, which is probably more audible. There are, of course, measurable differences which may not always be audible even to the most discerning ears.

There are people who claim they can hear the difference in a $100 vs. $10,000 6-foot IEC Power cord because of the technology involved in the brochure, when they couldn't remotely tell you what quality wiring comes into the building from the street. So, never trust the hype.

As for decision-making, the way I perceive something like that is, consider your client. If it's important to your clients that you have gear they can brag about, and it sounds good, then you did well. If your clients either couldn't tell you how an Apogee stacks up to an Antelope, you're just fine with the Apogee or even a MOTU which I use today. So long as the D/A is clean, accurate, and glitch-free, you should do well.
post edited by brconflict - 2017/07/19 22:28:45

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#19
TheSteven
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/14 21:40:57 (permalink)
The quality differences in modern converters between expensive and cheap is minimal if not undetectable.
Unlike the 80's where a lot of even expensive converters were crap.
 

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#20
AT
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/15 17:40:53 (permalink)
The first time I heard a digital to analog converter was in the 80s.  A girlfriend asked me to help pick new speakers.  The place played a then new CD through some bookshelves we were looking at and I had him turn it off and play the radio.  The digital spikes almost had my ears bleeding, and I did loud live sound several times a week.  Conversion has gotten much ... smoother since then.

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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/16 03:20:59 (permalink)
I ran a recording studio for years and there was a big difference in mic preamps between hardware. 
I don't find as much difference now between DA converters.
I did find a subtle difference between by Zoom R24 and the newer UR44 I bought to replace it. The UR44 sounded more direct and present to me. 
I don't think I could tell the difference between the newer DAC's now. 

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#22
batsbrew
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/16 15:07:35 (permalink)
i hear it.
not a'bing single sources against each other,
but listening to entire collections of tracks across a mix.
 
the buildup of 'sonics' from the quality of the converter really shows up with this kind of comparison.
it's a cumulative thing.

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#23
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/16 21:45:24 (permalink)
batsbrew
i hear it.
not a'bing single sources against each other,
but listening to entire collections of tracks across a mix.
 
the buildup of 'sonics' from the quality of the converter really shows up with this kind of comparison.
it's a cumulative thing.


But there could also be a noise floor component in this because summing tracks with a lower noise floor will sound cleaner..

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#24
batsbrew
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/17 15:14:58 (permalink)
not if you mind your gain stages and have clean captures,
as you always should.
 

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#25
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/18 04:03:42 (permalink)
There may be an audible difference but beyond that there's quality of components, dependability, features, driver stability, customer service, and of course... most importantly... the NAME!
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/06/18 04:10:58 (permalink)
AT
The first time I heard a digital to analog converter was in the 80s.  A girlfriend asked me to help pick new speakers.  The place played a then new CD through some bookshelves we were looking at and I had him turn it off and play the radio.  The digital spikes almost had my ears bleeding, and I did loud live sound several times a week.  Conversion has gotten much ... smoother since then.



I had one of these in the mid 80s. It had digital speakers that sounded better than anything else that size back then. They had a hefty price but I'd buy another one.

#27
interpolated
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Re: Can anyone honestly hear the difference between two decent DA converters? 2017/07/16 22:20:45 (permalink)
Holy mother of God it's made of Casio!
 

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