Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue.

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muzdol
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2017/06/12 21:00:03 (permalink)
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Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue.

http://forum.cakewalk.com...ng-issue-m3617257.aspx
 
I loaded up my Addictive drum and made simple beat last night.
and I created AUX track for parallel processing.
I inserted izotope alloy2 on Aux track, and loaded some preset. I could hear phasing issue.
OK, It can happen during playback!
I stopped the play and restarted play, again, and again, but there is always phase issue.
I tried many other plugins instead of alloy2, same results.
I use latest version of Sonar platinum with windows 7 64bit.
 
Some observations:
 
1. With Alloy2
-Addictive drums 2 + Alloy2 with multiband option -> Problematic.
-Freezed Addictive drums 2 + Alloy2 with multiband option -> Problematic.
-Addictive drums 2 + Alloy2 without multiband option -> Problematic
-Freezed Addictive drums 2 + Alloy2 without multiband option -> No problem.


So, Looks like multiband option cause the problem, and AD2 should be Freezed.


2. Without Alloy 2
-Addictive drums 2 + Waves Aphex exciter -> Problematic.
-Freezed Addcitvie drums 2 + Waves Aphex exciter -> No problem.
This time, Something's wrong with AD2.
 
3. With air strike 2
 
strike 2 + waves aphex -> No problem.
Strike 2 + Alloy 2 with multiband option -> Problematic.
Strike 2 + Ally 2 without multiband option -> No problem.
 
 
 
I think Alloy 2 and AD2 both have problem.
64 sample trick works for AD2, but not for alloy 2
Now I found that seems Alloy 2 has different latency on different frequency band, So I can not find proper sample number for trick when multiband option turned on.
 
FYI, PDC button does not help.
 
Please Help me!
 
Best,
SOHN.
#1

25 Replies Related Threads

    muzdol
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/13 03:37:43 (permalink)
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    1. alloy off - just playing AD2.
    2. alloy on - Aux track with alloy, but all module off on alloy.
    3. alloy with multiband - multiband comp on, but not compressed.
     
    https://soundcloud.com/nicksohn/sets/phase-issue
    #2
    ChazEd
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/15 03:39:46 (permalink)
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    Doing more tests, I figure out another workaround: turn on the Global ProChannel button on Addictive Drums track.
     
    Even if you have only PC EQ turned off, if you turn on Global ProChannel on AD track, the phase issues are gone.
     
    At least, that's my experience.
     
    And I think that's why I never noticed before. I've always had some ProChannel plugins active on every track.
     
    TL;DR: in my tests, if you add AD on a instrument track, with ProChannel Global button turned off, and try to do some parallel compression using a send or a aux track, you'll have phase issues.
     
    Workaround: turn on Global ProChannel button. Works even if any inserted ProChannel plugin is turned off.

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    #3
    muzdol
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/20 14:42:57 (permalink)
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    I dunno.. the engineers at cakewalk should know about this issue.
    #4
    pwalpwal
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/20 15:30:18 (permalink)
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    muzdol
    I dunno.. the engineers at cakewalk should know about this issue.

    yeah but they like to keep quiet until there's something to say... someone else got pm'd about similar issues so i'd guess they're working on it

    just a sec

    #5
    Sir Les
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/22 16:43:49 (permalink)
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    interesting using Allen and Heath r16 x2 back in the day.
     
    I usually set my device and Sonar to 96 khz, and used 24bit settings on most of my projects, when I was trying to get the good quality sound in and out of my audio device could muster up...and as I tied two devices together, manual says it has to be set to at least 96 khz for the two to be joined in tandem, using only analog inputs. .
     
    And all the while...it never worked out with Sonar...being stable, or without issues.
     
     
    Thanks...Now I have more so more knowledge about another Problem being shown is with, always a issue to solve for.
     
     
    and silence is below this post about them saying something ...is being looked into.
     
    Good.
     
    Thanks for posting.
     
    They locked the other Posts, so others cannot chime in?...ssshhh it is secret secret no more?......
     
     
    Cheers.
     
     

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    #6
    andykub
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/22 20:57:00 (permalink)
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    Interesting. I found that at times, I need to align synth tracks as they are off when recorded in MIDI and recorded into an audio track. I'll try the global Pro Channel switch next time. I thought it was a plugin fault, but now that I think of it, the problem is indeed the DAW- SPlat.
     
    Thanks!
    #7
    ibediggin
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/22 22:53:52 (permalink)
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    i have an issue also
    i record ..it sound like it is in perfect time
    when i stop
    i have to slide the track forward to sync up
    are my setting incorrect
    any ideas guys
    thank you

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    #8
    muzdol
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    Re: Looks like Sonar has latency reporting issue. 2017/06/23 02:50:23 (permalink)
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    I think that is not a latency reporting issue.
    That's a latency issue.
    #9
    muzdol
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    Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/01 11:17:00 (permalink)
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    I guess it is a latency reporting problem.
     
    For reproducing it,
     
    Alloy2:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/7mbwudy9u9yy9z5/alloy%20problem.zip?dl=0
    (Please on and off alloy2)
     
    Addictive drums2:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyzg2sa5d9t1zft/AD%20problem.cwp?dl=0
     
    Please, Please fix this problem.
    It is ridiculous that one can not use parallel processing.
    #10
    msorrels
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/01 17:28:32 (permalink)
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    I didn't think any DirectX plugins did latency compensation so that means no Sonitus plugins with parallel processing.

    -Matt
     
    #11
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 00:07:48 (permalink)
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    Nope.
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Does-sonar-support-directX-latency-compensation-m44299.aspx
     
    and I believe sonitus compressor has zero latency.
    #12
    msorrels
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 00:32:09 (permalink)
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    Interesting, I didn't even notice Alloy 2 has a Delay Compensation setting option.  It seems to report larger numbers if I turn on more of the options. 
     
    I created a single track with a short sharp hit/kick.  I put Alloy 2 on it and enabled all its effects and turned on its delay compensation.  I sent that track to a Aux track. I then made a copy of it without Alloy, sent to second aux track. 
     
    Recording both aux tracks I can see the hit lines up on all the tracks. 

     
    If I turn off Alloy's delay compensation, though the track with Alloy is delayed:

     
    That looks like it works to me, am I missing something (I didn't see any problems with your two projects either but I didn't have the drum kit you used in AD2)?
     

    -Matt
     
    #13
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 00:37:58 (permalink)
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    Did you turn on multiband option in alloy? For example, Turn on only compressor and Turn on multiband option on Compressor section, and I believe you can see what happens.
    #14
    msorrels
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 00:47:02 (permalink)
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    Everything still lines up (provided I've enabled the Delay Compensation in Alloy's Options panel under Host)
     

    -Matt
     
    #15
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 00:59:16 (permalink)
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    hmm.. did you try my project file?
    #16
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 01:01:44 (permalink)
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    timing issue is very subtle in alloy case.
    just tone changes, overall volume cut down...
     
    #17
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 01:21:07 (permalink)
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    I've tried same thing on Presonus studio one pro.
     
    Addictive drum issue does not happen.
     
    Alloy issue happens.
     
    So, I think AD problem is a Sonar's problem,
    and Alloy problem is not a Sonar's problem.
     
    FYI, ProMB does not have this issue. Guess Alloy's multiband filter is not that good as ProMB's.
    #18
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/02 02:08:05 (permalink)
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    OK I got it!
    Multiband processing in minimum phase mode makes a problem.
    ProMB in dynamic phase and linear phase mode is good to go for Parallel processing.
    #19
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/11 02:51:27 (permalink)
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    Update: BFD has no issue with latency reporting.
    #20
    Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/13 14:45:14 (permalink)
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    Hey Everyone! 

    We're looking into this issue currently and think we're on the right track. 

    Just to check, has anyone seen the issue outside of AD2 yet? I see Alloy mentioned, but that also was misbehaving in Studio One, correct?
     
    Thanks!

    Best Regards,
    Seth
    #21
    ChazEd
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/13 15:49:12 (permalink)
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    Hi Seth!
     
    Yes, I think the problem is AD2, because when using Session Drummer, it works just fine.
     
    But... I'm having the same phase issues with Session Drummer, if I load a ProChannel Tape Emulator in a aux track, that is a parallel compression track of the Session Drummer track.
     
    Just to be clear: parallel compression works fine with Session Drummer with all compressors I've tested (PC, Sonitus's, Nomad's Bus Driver), but if I load a ProChannel Tape Emulator in a aux track that is a send from another track (in this case, a Session Drummer track) I have phase issues.
     
    I will do some more tests and will report back.
     
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    #22
    muzdol
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/14 05:55:09 (permalink)
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    Yes!
    #23
    ChazEd
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/15 19:28:31 (permalink)
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    Reporting back:
     
    Unfortunately I don't think Addictive Drums is to blame.
     
    Parallel Compression with AD works fine in Ableton Live 8. Using a send or using AD Bus track and routing it to a audio track. Works just fine.
     
    Parallel Compression with Session Drummer works fine in Ableton Live 8 too.
     
    So this must be a issue with AD (when using Sonar as host) or Sonar.

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    #24
    Chandler
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/19 12:32:48 (permalink)
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    I'm having a related issue also with a new plugin called "The scream". Its a guitar pedal plugin that allows youto have different real time and render oversampling options. Using the render oversample option causes massive CPU usage, so I asked the developer about it. He wrote
     
    The only additional processing I do is adding a short delay to the input, which takes minimal extra cpu. This is needed to keep the latency during realtime and offline processing the same. It sounds like Sonar adds a chunk of cpu to your session when using latency compensation, so this is what you will be seeing, as each and every track in your whole session will now need to be delayed to bring it back in time with the latency The Scream is introducing.

    In a perfect world I could report a dynamic latency to the DAW and it would handle this. The reality is most DAWs crash. So you have three options: 1) disable extra oversampling on render in The Scream, 2) disable latency compensation in your DAW (or ask the guys at Sonar to optimise their latency compensation algorithm to lower the cpu hit), or 3) enable ForceDynamicLatency in the options of The Scream, and hope Sonar doesn't crash!

    To enable ForceDynamicLatency open The Scream, the click on the Preset name and selection "Show Presets Folder" from the menu. Then open the file "settings.xml" in a text editor and alter the line:
    <Tuple Key="ForceDynamicLatency" Value="false"/>
    to:
    <Tuple Key="ForceDynamicLatency" Value="true"/>

    If Sonar crashes on render then you will have to change this back, and email the guys at Sonar to fix their DAW so it can handle dynamically switching latency on render!

    Sorry I can't be of more help, but there isn't anything more I can do without the help of customers of all DAWs insisting on adding support for latency changing dynamically on render.
     
     
    I haven't tried the dynamic latency yet, but the amount of CPU use is a problem.

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    #25
    msorrels
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    Re: Phase issue with izotope alloy 2 and addictive drums 2 when using parallel processing. 2017/07/19 13:48:34 (permalink)
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    I installed The Scream's trial version.  I don't think its problems in SONAR are a CPU issue at all.  In fact I didn't see any CPU spikes really.  But I do think the plugin isn't correctly reporting latency, which was causing SONAR all kinds of problems.  Using the PDC Info plugin (it reports the delay from it to the end of the audio chain) when sandwiched around The Scream showed it was reporting no delay/1ms delay.  But it was obviously delaying things.  I'm not sure how much I trust the PDC plugin really.  And I'm not really sure SONARs PDC delay works right.  But I don't think The Scream is doing what it's supposed to be doing.
     
    Here's info on the PDC plugin:
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/A-free-plugin-to-show-PDC-Info-the-delay-that-each-plugin-introduces-m3411418.aspx
     

    -Matt
     
    #26
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