SonicExplorer
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V-Vocal Warble ?
I've been learning the various editing aspects of V-Vocal and have most of the basics now figured out, but am struggling with a few quirks. One of which is as follows: I activated V-Vocal on a bass track and just the act of doing that (with no additional processing or editing) introduced a "warble" in some isolated areas within the track. Any tips how to prevent/correct this behavior? I was under the impression simply creating the initial V-Vocal track would not in itself do anything to alter the result. Or am I misunderstanding something? I also tried running the eraser over the problem areas just to be sure and no change in behavior. I did however notice in a YouTube video that maybe this could be related to spikes in the signal which V-Vocal is confusing as too much gain and reacting to it? The problem areas that create a brief warble do seem to be in the same areas where "spikes" tend to appear on the graph. These "spikes" do not correlate to any such spikes in the original track, but they do tend to correlate to fast notes. Thanks for any help on this... Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/06/22 04:13:37
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Kev999
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 03:53:15
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Did you apply V-Vocal to the entire track? It doesn't always work well on large clips. Try splitting it into shorter clips and just work on the bits that need correcting.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 03:57:55
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Kev999
Did you apply V-Vocal to the entire track? It doesn't always work well on large clips. Try splitting it into shorter clips and just work on the bits that need correcting.
I did indeed. The whole track needed slight pitch correction. Wow, so the size of a clip makes a difference in the behavior/performance of V-Vocal?? (BTW, I updated the original post with some additional information)
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 09:54:57
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SonicExplorer
Kev999
Did you apply V-Vocal to the entire track? It doesn't always work well on large clips. Try splitting it into shorter clips and just work on the bits that need correcting.
I did indeed. The whole track needed slight pitch correction. Wow, so the size of a clip makes a difference in the behavior/performance of V-Vocal??
(BTW, I updated the original post with some additional information)
Yes, the size of the slice can matter. The same often goes actually with Melodyne as well (at least plugin). There's been dozens of posts about pitch correction problems with material that is somehow distorted or otherwise harder to "read", even with a raspy vocal. I could imagine there can be such sounds on a bass track as well.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 14:18:41
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Kalle Rantaaho
Yes, the size of the slice can matter. The same often goes actually with Melodyne as well (at least plugin).
There's been dozens of posts about pitch correction problems with material that is somehow distorted or otherwise
harder to "read", even with a raspy vocal. I could imagine there can be such sounds on a bass track as well.
Is there some procedure that can be done in V-Vocal to correct these glitches? I've tried the eraser tool, no change. Only other thing I can think of is to experiment with manually altering the spikes in the graph where the warbles occur?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 14:42:12
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V-Vocal works best when you deal with short clips (as noted above) that are clean, free of bleed, distortion etc. Depending on which version of SONAR you're running, V-Vocal may not be the best tool for correcting Bass and Melodyne might be better. But it depends which version you've got. V-Vocal is great for correcting Vocal pitch/timing etc (hence the name  ) but there are probably better solutions available for instruments.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 15:07:08
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I'd only use V-Vocal for vocals and bass tracks. The bass tone does have mild distortion in it (Sansamp). There is no signal level clipping involved on the tracks. I have Sonar 5PE and 6PE. Which are the first two years V-Vocal was included IIRC.
I was going to try a pitch correct plug for the bass like Gsnap but couldn't get it to load for some reason. Would something like that be better than V-vocal to pitch-correct bass? I only require random nudging, nothing major.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 15:07:34
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(duplicate entry removed)
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bitflipper
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 15:14:18
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V-Vocal has to first determine the pitch of each note's fundamental frequency, which can be difficult or even impossible depending on the nature of the tone. Distortion and other effects greatly reduce its ability to map pitch correctly. Your best strategy is to identify (by ear) specific parts of the track that truly need correction, split clips to isolate those parts into their own clips, and then apply correction to just those clips.
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chuckebaby
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 16:47:45
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My theory has always been...
If you need to fix a whole track using V Vocal, Melodyne or any type of correctional software,
Then you are better off re doing that whole track over again.
I say this of course because of personal experience using both V Vocal and Melodyne.
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bvideo
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 17:30:31
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VVocal is meant for surgical editing of individual notes in a monophonic performance. It probably doesn't work very well if there is even the slightest overlap between two consecutive notes, including any reverberant ambience.
It seems the OP needs a wholesale pitch shift of a few cents, without regard for identifying individual notes. So best performed by a process dedicated to that kind of task, i.e. no analysis, just resampling. Cakewalk's "Process > Transpose" is a pitch shifter, but does not allow shifts smaller than a half-tone.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 18:14:24
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Thanks guys, much appreciate your input. I would think a pitch corrector like Gsnap would be good but after seeing what V-Vocal did I suppose Gsnap could also end up misinterpreting something in a track and then it would be entirely useless since I couldn't even do any manual editing/correcting. So maybe V-Vocal is indeed the way to go after all, if I can just figure some ways to manage the warbling. Next time I will try breaking into multiple clips.
For now tho....
Is there any way to cut out parts of V-Vocal clips after the fact like you could a regular clip? Given I have done a lot of manual editing already on the V-Vocal track, rather than start all over again by splicing up the track in multiple V-Vocal sections can I somehow just cut out the sections of V-Vocal clip that are causing the warbles? Or some other trick to achieve the same end result?
Sonic
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Kev999
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 21:09:39
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For pitch shifting a large clip I would normally use Time/Pitch Stretch 2. To apply it, right-click on the audio clip, then select:
Process Effect > Audio Effects > Cakewalk > Time/Pitch Stretch 2
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/22 21:52:33
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SonicExplorer
Thanks guys, much appreciate your input. I would think a pitch corrector like Gsnap would be good but after seeing what V-Vocal did I suppose Gsnap could also end up misinterpreting something in a track and then it would be entirely useless since I couldn't even do any manual editing/correcting. So maybe V-Vocal is indeed the way to go after all, if I can just figure some ways to manage the warbling. Next time I will try breaking into multiple clips.
For now tho....
Is there any way to cut out parts of V-Vocal clips after the fact like you could a regular clip? Given I have done a lot of manual editing already on the V-Vocal track, rather than start all over again by splicing up the track in multiple V-Vocal sections can I somehow just cut out the sections of V-Vocal clip that are causing the warbles? Or some other trick to achieve the same end result?
Sonic
I know what I would do 1.Start by removing all of the existing V-Vocal material by right clicking and choosing Edit > Remove V-Vocal, leaving you with your original raw track. 2. Make a copy of the track which you can then screw around with all you want. You'll always have the original to go back to. 3. Identify the notes which definitely need correcting and split them out into their own, short clip. 4. Now apply V-Vocal to these clips, one at a time. 5. When you're happy with your editing, bounce the clip to itself. V-Vocal removal is part of the bounce process. 8. Now move onto the next clip It's probably a good idea to disable all Fx when doing this type of editing
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/23 03:57:52
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Thanks guys.
So then does it matter if there are FX plugs on the track when V-Vocal is applied? I assumed it would only concentrate on the core track when it initially analyzes things, without regard to any FX plugs. Or rather do I need to manually disable any FX plugs before applying V-Vocal?
Sonic
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/23 07:48:06
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Not necessarily.
I only mentioned it above to make it easier for you to hear the changes you've made without being distracted by the Effects.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/24 04:35:15
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I'm really confused about what exactly is going on with V-Vocal and Sonar. I tried hunting around on YouTube and within the meager help file and can't find any explanations.... Can somebody explain to me what the dual layer clips are about? I'm guessing the V-Vocal (top layer) is sort of a "virtual clip" in a sense. But why then does Sonar keep the original clip visibly underneath? Is that just a convenience thing?? And once you bounce to clips, the original is still left sitting underneath. And has a red circle with a line through it where the clip name is otherwise found. Is that supposed to mean something? If someone could explain, or point me at someplace where I can read up on the whole V-Vocal/clip/Sonar integration paradigm" I'd appreciate it. While i have managed to figure out most of V-Vocal basics I simply don't feel comfortable relying on a tool that has a whole new set of clip-management "rules" within Sonar that are rather unique & opaque.... Thanks, Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/06/24 06:14:05
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Kev999
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/24 06:13:20
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SonicExplorer
...Can somebody explain to me what the dual layer clips are about? I'm guessing the V-Vocal (top layer) is sort of a "virtual clip" in a sense. But why then does Sonar keep the original clip visibly underneath? Is that just a convenience thing?? And once you bounce to clips, the original is still left sitting underneath. And has a red circle with a line through it where the clip name is otherwise found. Is that supposed to mean something?...
I'd forgotten about the dual-layer thing. It doesn't work that way in later versions. Anyway it's not a bit deal. The bottom layer is the original clip muted. It's just there as a backup. Delete it if you wish.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/29 09:04:09
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Guys, I ran across another quirk and wonder if you might shed some light on the cause.... Sometimes when I click to create a V-Vocal clip it opens with nothing present. Sonar and V-Vocal seem at first to be acting normally, both do their initial processing thing, but when the dust settles there is nothing inside V-Vocal. I undo the operation, close down and restart Sonar, attempt the process again and then it works fine. Am I possibly doing something wrong when creating a V-Vocal clip or is this likely a bug?? Thanks, Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/06/29 09:26:10
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: V-Vocal Warble ?
2017/06/29 20:44:42
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No, you're not doing anything wrong.
VV always had the ability/tendency to throw you a curve ball every so often and not play nice.
One way which works is to copy the clip to a blank project, do your V-Vocal work there - bounce to track and copy it back
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