Question about samples

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DanielVogel
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2017/06/25 22:04:42 (permalink)

Question about samples

I am returning to home recording after a few years off with a new PC. I need a synth for virtual instruments. I will want some warm Mellotronish synth sounds, but also some realistic classical instruments that I would sequence via Midi. When I last was recording, internal synths were still the rage. I assume today all virtual instruments are companies that sell gigabytes of samples which one uses Sonar to sequence, rather than hardware synths? I have a small three octave keyboard I'll use as controller. Would I be researching companies that sell samples with the PC acting as a sampler that changes keys of samples with one's controller? Wouldn't that require all digital samples to be in the same key if I'm going to be playing them on a controller in different keys?
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    interpolated
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/25 22:18:55 (permalink)
    Depends on your genre. Arturia might do a Mellotron emulation and check out Spectrasonic synths.
     
    Cakewalk Z3ta+ is a good waveshaping synth.
     

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    AT
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/26 14:34:55 (permalink)
    There are plenty of "kinds" of soft synths that use your PC to generate sounds.  Many our Virtual Analogue, software versions of Moog etc. (Zeta as above).   Most are sample-playback synths, that use a prefab library of synth and  acoustic/electric instrument sounds (Rapture and DimPro are Cake's best examples).  There are few "samplers" that let you actually sample a sound internally and work on it.
     
    I'm not sure about your question about Keys and chords.  Most shorter keyboards let you increment the actual keyboard by octave up and down the range.  So tho you can't play all 88 piano notes at once, you can play every note, which is an answer to your question, I think.  Kontakt (probably the standard sample-playback synth [tho you can certainly stick your own samples in it] will work with keys/chords, although I think that is only in conjunction with their hardware.  I just got a Maschine Jam hardware controller and you can play the pads like a keyboard and pick only pads that are in your key so it will only play those notes.  "Look ma, no bad notes."  "Well, Johnny, you can't play jazz then."
     
    I hope this helps.  If not, refine your question and ask again.  Plenty of people with better answers here.

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    rsinger
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/26 17:02:27 (permalink)
    For home recording you would likely get a virtual instrument. If it's a synth you can program it or buy third party patches if you want more than what comes with it. If it's a sample player it will come with some set of samples, but there are often expansion packs available to expand it from the developer or from third parties. There are different sample formats so you need a format that your sample player supports. HTH. If you have Sonar it comes with some virtual instruments.

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    tlw
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/27 01:53:43 (permalink)
    DanielVogel
    I am returning to home recording after a few years off with a new PC. I need a synth for virtual instruments. I will want some warm Mellotronish synth sounds, but also some realistic classical instruments that I would sequence via Midi. When I last was recording, internal synths were still the rage. I assume today all virtual instruments are companies that sell gigabytes of samples which one uses Sonar to sequence, rather than hardware synths?


    There are probably more analogue and digital hardware synths on the market now than at any previous time. And more software synthesisers as well.

    They hardware is mostly much more affordable than it used to be a couple fo decades ago as well. What has pretty much disappeared is hardware "General MIDI" specification sound modules and keyboards which simply had astandard set of "instruments" such as "piano", "bass", "oboe" etc. of usually pretty unrealistic quality, and intended to ensure that MIDI files for the music in e.g. games sounded roughly the same no matter the platform they were played on. Nowadays software-based samplers do a much better job of impersonating the "real thing".

    DanielVogel
    I have a small three octave keyboard I'll use as controller. Would I be researching companies that sell samples with the PC acting as a sampler that changes keys of samples with one's controller? Wouldn't that require all digital samples to be in the same key if I'm going to be playing them on a controller in different keys?


    Samples of instruments that are intended to play as an instrument rather than audio loops generally load into a software sampler instrument. Rapture, Rapture Pro and Dimension Pro are the Cakewalk ones, there are many others from e.g. Native Instruments and IK Multimedia to name but two. The sample instruments supplied by the sampler manufacturers generally need no user intervention to ge them into the right key or pitch, the software instrument takes care of that. Providers of sample libraries usually either supply a suitable player for their product or state which sampler(s) their product works with.

    Pre-recorded audio loops (short passages of up to a few bars, some people build entire compositions based round them) may need re-pitching to get into the desired key, but pretty much every DAW can handle doing that. Though if taken too far from original pitch loops can start to sound a bit strange.

    In short, don't over-think this. Most of the hard work has already been done by hardware and software instrument designers and sample creators.

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    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/27 13:50:20 (permalink)
    Kontakt, by Native Instruments, and Play, by EastWest, are pretty much top of the line sample-players.
     
    There are incredible libraries available for both, both commercial and free.
     
    I happen to have need for many of the Mellotron sounds, and there are several instruments/libraries for Kontakt that sound incredibly good.
     
    You may well, alternatively, be able to get pretty close with sounds, with Dimension Pro or Rapture Pro (Cakewalk).
     
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/27 15:02:22 (permalink)
    For Mellotron consider G-Media M-Tron (Pro).
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    DanielVogel
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/27 18:46:08 (permalink)
    Thanks all. Lots of great ideas to consider. It took me a few minutes to recognize that your references to sample players, like Kontact, would all be software, which appealed to me as I'll be using a PC for recording purposes only. I assume the programs you mentioned would be opened separately from Sonar, but I'd be pulling them up as instruments WITHIN Sonar? Should I use my old Sonar 2 or to manage these new samplers would it be better to buy a latest version (I noticed there were cheaper version like Home Studio or Professional (which are cheaper than Cakewalk or Sonar versions used to be in the 2000s!). I'll be recording some keyboards, all guitars, and voices via mixer outputs one track at a time, but for the samplers you mentioned, will the new Sonar versions like Home Studio or Professional have easy midi editing of my sampled keyboard parts, like Sonar 2 had? Finally, any easy way to build percussion, a drum machine program that works with Sonar but won't need me reading 300 page manuals! I want to focus on musical creating!!!
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/27 19:16:08 (permalink)
    If you are buying already, I think the top version of Sonar (Platinum) still comes with Addictive Drums 2 which is a great drum program for acoustic/real drums - it comes with three kits and lots of midi loops and you can obviously edit the loops in Sonar.

    The programs we're talking about will occasionally work as stand-alone but mostly you'd open them within Sonar, they're called plugins or virtual instruments or sometimes VSTi (Virtual Studio Technology instruments, a standard devised by Steinberg).

    Kontakt is pretty much the standard for software samplers these days. You can buy it separately or as part of a bundle called Komplete which comes with a bunch of other sound expansions and other software synthesizers and fx. Currently the manufacturer, called Native Instruments, is holding a sale I think.

    Altogether you'd be looking at quite a lot of money, around 600 for the top Sonar version and another time something like that for Komplete, even with the sale. M Tron Pro is cheaper but it also depends on how many expansions you want with it. With Sonar comes a basic version of Melodyne which is an awesome vocal editor (can also be used for other stuff) that you may want to upgrade for another 200 euros or so. It's really easy to spend your money these days :)

    But still a lot cheaper than buying a Motif or Triton ten/fifteen years ago. And obviously you can go step by step, you could get a simpler version of Sonar, or you could get the top version but wait with buying Komplete or Kontakt (because it already comes with loads of stuff).
    #9
    bitflipper
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/28 13:21:50 (permalink)
    Welcome back to the world of recording, Daniel. I was where you are about 14 years ago, returning to it after a long hiatus. At the time I didn't know what was out there, but was very pleasantly surprised when I found out! I landed on SONAR because I had used the Cakewalk MIDI sequencer back in the 80's. That turned out to be a fortuitous accident.
     
    If you were running a somewhat more recent version of SONAR, say version 5 or later, I'd recommend staying there for awhile until you'd had a chance to build up a Kontakt library collection. But given that you're at version 2, that's not possible. That version simply won't do the job anymore in today's environment because it lacked VST support.
     
    So your first priority, before you start buying samplers and sample libraries and soft synths, should be to upgrade to the current version of SONAR. Ideally, that would be the Platinum edition, which comes bundled with a lot of good instruments and effects. So do the less-expensive versions, but Platinum has them all, including Dimension Pro, Rapture, Z3ta and Addictive Drums. Plenty to keep you out of trouble for a long time.


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    AT
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/28 15:09:58 (permalink)
    Yes, an upgraded new version of SONAR can solve a lot of your headaches.  Cake has a upgrade Sale going on now for early SONAR X series.  Call sales and see if they can help you.
     
    SONAR comes in various strengths, although the engine is the same the goodies aren't.  Think of it like a loaded car.  You pay more but you get more.  The top level of SONAR gives you a built-in drum machine (see above), built-in synths including Dimension Pro (a sample playback synth) and Rapture (same engine but the included samples are more synth-like rather than acoustic).  There is a bunch of other synths and effects and reverbs included, so you don't really need anything more than SONAR.  It is a good way to get a running start.
     
    Then later you can add the Native instrument stuff, and there is cheaper ways to do it.  I bought a NI Kontakt library, Heavyocity, on sale which could use the "free" Kontakt player.  I upgraded to a paid Kontakt for like $200 during their Christmas sale.  The next summer or so I bought Reaktor for another $200.  I bought the hardware Maschine on sale which came with more synths and can now upgrade to their (un) Komplete collection for another $200 or their Ultimate for $400 (NI has 1/2 price summer and Christmas sales every year).  Like Cakewalk, they want to keep you in the family.  I don't know how much money I've saved this way but I spread the pain over 4-5 years and have NI pianos and moog and a bunch of other stuff I didn't want but now like.

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    DanielVogel
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/28 20:11:27 (permalink)
    Thanks SanderXpander and Bitflipper for recommending I upgrade to Platinum from Sonar 2 and telling me that its cheaper version will include Rapture, Z3ta, and Active Drums! That is good news as I was planning to buy those separately after reading the user replies from others (thanks all! Fellow musicians are friendlier than poodles!). I still haven't researched soundcards. It looks like the software will prefer Windows 7 over 10 for my new PC. But guessing the soundcard won't be up to par. Still have an old Sonar 24 bit USB card from years ago, virtually unused as my old laptop was too slow. But a new PC should easily handle that, or I may research a better slot card. I'll read up on the Sonar website for recommendations. Like you Bitflipper I am so excited to return. I've owned every Cakewalk version up to Sonar 2. My wife and I are divorcing after 28 years. I am so depressed. So I could use a creative outlet. Will go back to composing prog rock instrumentals or something! Thanks for all your help Sonarians!!!!!!
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/28 21:45:21 (permalink)
    Only Platinum comes with all those synths included! Though "professional still has a decent subset". Be sure to check the feature comparison page. I don't use all Sonar stuff all the time but if you're starting from scratch, Platinum, while the most money, is a very competitive package.
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    JohanSebatianGremlin
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/30 02:16:50 (permalink)
    I'd recommend looking at Kontakt before you look at anything else. The factory library is comprehensive and technically tics all the boxes you asked for including mellotron stuff. However its also the defacto industry standard these days so anyone else that markets samples or a sample based instrument of some sort makes it available in Kontakt format. If you get nothing else, you'll probably want to get Kontakt.
     
    After that, look at Omnisphere. Its a hybrid of synth and sample player and it covers a very broad spectrum of sounds.
     
    Once you've got that stuff going, give a look at the G-Force Mtron. It is as close to a mellotron as you can get.
     
    The Arturia stuff is also excellent if you want models of specific synths and instruments.

     
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    DanielVogel
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/30 17:00:37 (permalink)
    Thanks all for your baker's dozen replies! I'll start with Platinum and that will keep me mighty busy for awhile and too poor to buy anything else for a while. I worry I won't be able to figure out the whole shebang - so many plugins, I'll be turning into a Borg. Are they relatively easy to learn for a pea brain like me (I'm a psychologist by trade not a NASA Hidden Figure)? Will I have time to create?
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    DanielVogel
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    Re: Question about samples 2017/06/30 17:06:14 (permalink)
    That was good advice, thanks so much I have a feeling Platinum will keep me busy for a long time. In fact I worry I won't be able to figure out all those videos plugins!
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