Freezing instruments in Play not working

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Amicus717
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2017/06/26 00:17:53 (permalink)

Freezing instruments in Play not working

Hi folks,
 
I am working on a piece that has multiple synths involved, including a couple of instances of Hollywood Brass. For some reason, when I try to freeze these tracks, the resulting wave file is faulty -- the legato horn cuts out after every note rather than sustain, and it basically useless. I recall this problem in the past (or something similar, possibly bouncing Play instruments was acting dodgy?). But I also recall that it was fixed, either in Sonar or in Play. Is freezing Play tracks an issue for anyone else, at the moment?
 
Rob

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    gustabo
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/26 00:33:30 (permalink)
    It was a problem for me until I set Play to stream from memory/ram and not disk.


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    #2
    rhenn
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/26 02:33:48 (permalink)
    I've also had glitchy results with freezing Play. So I usually real-time record Play tracks using my RME's loop back function. As an alternative, you can use Sonar's Patch Point function to record your synth (Play) tracks. Also try unchecking the quick freeze box in freeze options and see if that helps. Frustratingly slow this way, but you should get what you hear. ASIO buffer size seems to be a factor too. Haven't tried gustabo's solution, but that will effect overall performance and have other consequences? Somewhere I read that EastWest recommends loading Play instances in Synth Rack ahead of other soft synths. So I usually start a project with multiple instances of Play loaded and load others (Kontakt, etc.) later. I wish there was a way to reorder synths in the rack to see if that improves performance. Feature request? Good luck, hope this helps.
    #3
    Amicus717
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 01:56:50 (permalink)
    I am having the same problem with Play when I try to bounce tracks, too. I had this problem before, it seemed fixed for a time, and now its back. I turned off Stream From Disk, and it solved the bounce and freeze problem, but now I find Play actually clicks and glitches out -- even when I set the buffer to ridiculously high levels. This is a major issue for me, as I do orchestral stuff, and the Hollywood libraries are a big part of my repertoire. It is kind odd that this just seems to have cropped up from nowhere. I am currently working on a bigger project than usual -- with multiple instances of Kontakt and Play, and I wonder if that is part of it...

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    #4
    rhenn
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 02:47:36 (permalink)
    Bigger projects consume more resources and overhead. How much RAM do you have? What are your system specs? Win 10 pro? Creator's update? Samples on fast drive, preferably SSD? I do mostly orchestral projects as well, and I'm finding Play and Kontakt don't always play nice together. My DAW with 64GB works great until I hit it too hard. CPU never goes over 20% but sometimes clicks and glitches appear out of nowhere if I cross an unseen line. When that happens, I bounce/freeze tracks and/or increase ASIO buffer to 1024, and usually that does the trick. I have projects with ~100 tracks and 8 instances of Play that run fine at 256 buffer or lower. When I add other non-Play synths, things can get buggy. Make sure to turn off WIFI - that's guaranteed to cause problems.
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    Amicus717
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 03:36:14 (permalink)
    Well, all my specs are in my signature, except hard drives -- I have 5 drives, three SSDs and two WD Blacks, and most of my samples are on the SSDs, including all the Play stuff. I don't use Wifi, as I much prefer wired LAN connections for speed and stability, and ran network cable throughout my house for that reason. I closed what I was working on, and pulled up a much smaller project with only two instances of Play, 6 tracks and no other synths -- hardly a beast from a resource perspective -- and Play would not bounce nicely there, either. I suspect that this is a problem with Play and Sonar, rather than just a matter of resource management.
     
    I should probably clarify that my current project is bigger than other things I have been working on lately. I have had projects this big in the past, but I don't recall any issues with Play (aside from a brief period last year, I think, where Play wasn't bouncing properly, and which was addressed in a patch - at least, I seem to recall?). Now all of a sudden I can't get Play to behave nicely, and while there are work arounds, they are kind of a pain to use.

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    msorrels
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 11:45:03 (permalink)
    Starting with Play 5 they changed how it works with streaming samples resulting in issues when doing final rendering (more so on Windows I think than Mac which may explain why they haven't fixed it).  5.04 actually seems worse.  Unless your libraries are on a fast SSD drive, no bounce down/final render will be correct.  Release tails on patches won't render reliably.  As well as other missing bits.  And even with an SSD drive I think results are suspect. 
     
    This happens in Reaper and SONAR, it's not a SONAR issue.  I have a two MIDI track project using two string patches that fails in both Reaper and SONAR.  Doesn't require some "super" complex project to have a problem. 
     
    If you select every loaded instrument in Play and turn off streaming from disc before doing the export/freeze you will get the correct results (though the memory usage will be very high).  Or (if possible) you can go back to Play 4.3.5. But you loose new features added to Play 5.
     

    -Matt
     
    #7
    bitflipper
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 12:52:09 (permalink)
    I would think that if it plays back OK it should render in real time, too. Have you tried setting the slow bounce option? That inserts the usual wait times during the bounce that don't happen during a normal fast bounce, allowing the disk to keep up. Just un-check the "Fast bounce" box at the top of the freeze options.


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    msorrels
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 13:33:05 (permalink)
    Fast vs slow bounce does produce different results but not "correct" results.  EastWest release notes on Play have noted a number of issues with final renders vs realtime play, but while they keep tweaking it, they still haven't fixed it.  They are certainly doing something different when rendering vs realtime playback, but both render types have issues with getting sample content to the audio engine.  I think I only notice it more because most of my EastWest libraries are on a NAS network drive.  So the missing bits shows up much more than when the libraries are on a fast SSD.
     
    I should also note that it fails during normal playback too, but it's much harder to notice, since Window's file caching generally covers up the failures.  So you re-play a section and it sounds right because Windows has cached all the file data necessary.  You think it's good/was just a glitch and move on.  But the truth is the engine did fail and will fail again, under the right conditions.
     

    -Matt
     
    #9
    Amicus717
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 13:40:28 (permalink)
    I tried slow bounce, and it was better but not perfect. And while it will render in full when I disable stream from disk, the resulting audio is has artifacts in it. Using patch-points to record the solo'd track to an audio track works, and that's what I have been doing, but its a hassle. 
     
    Oddly, rendering Play does work for me in Reaper. I tried that last night, and I had no problem with it. Mind you, it was only a test with 4 tracks and a couple of Play instances, so that may not be reflective of how a full project would behave. 

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    rhenn
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 13:50:02 (permalink)
    This is why I've resorted to doing real-time recording of the audio stream using my interface's loopback feature (RME UCX). That way if you are hearing the results you want, you can capture it and monitor for any artifacts, clicks, etc. Time consuming, but it works. (Of course, if you're getting glitches in playback, this won't help.) If your interface doesn't support loopback, I think you can do the same thing with Sonar's patch points. One more thought - Play 5 added new settings for type/speed of drive. You might try adjusting those. Details are on EW's support site. I'm pretty happy with Play 5, until, as I wrote earlier, I hit it real hard and gremlins start appearing out of nowhere.
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 14:28:59 (permalink)
    I've never tried to bounce or freeze Play inside SONAR, but it does Export properly without a single hiccup
     
    This is from a 135 track template with drum-mapped keyswitched articulations.

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    msorrels
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 15:03:43 (permalink)
    rhenn
    One more thought - Play 5 added new settings for type/speed of drive. You might try adjusting those. Details are on EW's support site.

     
    On my computer that entire section of the Play settings UI is blank.  There are no options for setting any drives options.  No clue why, though multiple uninstalls and even hand removal of everything from the registry fixed nothing.  So I've just gone back to 4.3.5.  It works, it bounces/freezes even with libraries on slow network drives and realtime playback works too.

    -Matt
     
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    Amicus717
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/06/28 15:47:37 (permalink)
    msorrels
     So I've just gone back to 4.3.5.  It works, it bounces/freezes even with libraries on slow network drives and realtime playback works too.


    Yeah, I may do the same. 

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    drummaman
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/07/03 01:30:27 (permalink)
    Amicus717
    msorrels
     So I've just gone back to 4.3.5.  It works, it bounces/freezes even with libraries on slow network drives and realtime playback works too.


    Yeah, I may do the same. 



    Was just getting ready to do that when I found this thread.
     
    My issue is that I cannot open a project with two frozen instances of PLAY.
     
    When I attempt to launch the stand-alone version, nothing happens.
     
    So there is definitely an issue with East West Play, as all other synths are working just fine -
    including freezing and thawing them...
     
    I have a ticket in with East-West/SoundsOnline so hopefully they can shed some light.
     
    [EDIT] - 4.3.5 works as expected, and I was able to thaw/un-freeze two instances of PLAY and the associated MIDI files.
     
     
    post edited by drummaman - 2017/07/03 02:29:09

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    Steve_Karl
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    Re: Freezing instruments in Play not working 2017/07/04 19:39:41 (permalink)
    Real time recording of synths, the same way you would record a guitar track or vocal track, has been available for a long time.
    Just arm the audio tracks for the synth and then hit R.
    It's also musch faster than freezing since it records all 8 or 16 tracks at the same time.

    I've found this method (for me) to be better than freezing 100% of the time.

    Steve Karl
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