Helpful ReplyHow to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ?

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J-War
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2017/07/04 22:41:44 (permalink)

How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ?

Hello All,
 
While he was working on panoramics, I saw once a producer using a trick to remove few DBs in the center in order to widen the mix and free some room for vocals.
Unfortunately i don't recall at all how he used to do that !
 
Would someone know how to do this using some plugin or some hint ?
 
Thanks in advance.
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thedukewestern
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/04 22:51:21 (permalink)
There's a few ways to do it - if your talking about a stereo mix - such as a "beat" you may have gotten - you can try using Channel Tools in Mid Side mode.   Or any eq that will work in Mid Side mode as well, this way you can eq the center verses the sides.   I do the latter very often in 1 form or another.  Hope this helps!

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#2
J-War
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/04 23:06:22 (permalink)
Thanks for the hint but if i'm not mistaken, the guy didn't used an EQ to do that. He directly removed few DBs in the center of the mix using something on the bus master.
 
What about " Waves center stereo " plugin ?
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bitflipper
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 00:01:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 17:35:52
He may have used a Mid/Side splitter, separating the components that occupy the center from the those that live out on the sides and dropping the levels on the Mid portion. As suggested above, Channel Tools is the tool for that. You could also grab Voxengo's free MSED plugin, which is a little simpler to use.


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J-War
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 00:30:45 (permalink)
Thanks very much for your help ;)
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bitman
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 00:43:14 (permalink)
This is going to be scoffed at but some time ago I put up a commercial Nashville release on two speakers on the bench. I had to put my head between them to fiddle with the back of the receiver. When I did I noticed I heard kick, snare, bass and vox in the center and everything seemed panned hard left and hard right, and stacked low to high on each side.
 
Ok so I do country and also like so many NORtherners are chasing Nashville sound rainbows, so I tried it and have never gone back.
 
The featured song in my sig (just the latest) is done this way.
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bitflipper
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 02:04:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 17:37:21
That's actually a very old technique, often referred to as "LRC mixing" because every track is either panned 100% to one side or dead center. Proponents say it makes for very clear-sounding mixes. I'd caution that they sound best with your head stuck directly between the speakers.


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cparmerlee
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 02:39:05 (permalink)
J-War
Thanks for the hint but if i'm not mistaken, the guy didn't used an EQ to do that. He directly removed few DBs in the center of the mix using something on the bus master.
 
What about " Waves center stereo " plugin ?



I haven't used that Waves plug, but it looks like it would do what you are describing. 
 
HOWEVER, I'd encourage taking a good look at the EQs that can do mid-side because to give the VOX some space in the middle, you may not want to duck ALL frequencies in the middle.  You may just want to duck the spectrum where the VOX lives.
The Cakewalk LP EQ can do this, and the Izotope Ozone stuff for sure.  Probably many others too.
 
My only confusion about these plug-ins that support mid-side is that they don't really give you much (or any) control over where the boundary between mid and side lies.  I think Channel Tools can do that, so I guess you could create two buses and use Channel Tools to separate mid from side, then apply EQ to the mid bus, which I think is what Bitflipper is suggesting.
 
I've never done that so I'd be interested in any comments about how well that works.

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kellerpj
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 03:22:53 (permalink)
bitman:
Interesting.  I'm interested in what you said because I often mix in headphones.
What do you mean by the phrase "stacked low to high on each side"?
 

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Anderton
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 15:48:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 17:39:04
Another option isn't to lower the center, but raise the sides to create more "space" for whatever is in the center. You can do this with image widening and binaural panning plug-ins (e.g., the Blue Tubes stereo imager). This is effective if the space you need to open up isn't too huge.

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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 18:09:30 (permalink)
I would think that if you're going to do this, it's probably a good idea to make sure that your "sides" are very mono compatible, because if they're not (i.e. they sound phasey when collapsed to mono) and you're attenuating the solid "mid" component then I suspect it would make things sound even less solid in mono.

I think I'd be more likely to use a mid-side EQ to notch out some important vocal frequencies in the middle. NI's Passive EQ is good for this.

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bitflipper
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 20:06:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/07 15:05:43
cparmerlee
My only confusion about these plug-ins that support mid-side is that they don't really give you much (or any) control over where the boundary between mid and side lies.  I think Channel Tools can do that, so I guess you could create two buses and use Channel Tools to separate mid from side, then apply EQ to the mid bus, which I think is what Bitflipper is suggesting.

That's because there is no boundary as such. "Mid" means all the components that are the same on both the left and the right channels. "Side" means all the components that are different between left and right. Subtract left from right and multiply by 2 and what you're left with is whatever they had in common. It's a straight-up arithmetic operation, not a gradual transition.
 
Of course, most components are not exclusively left, right or center. A mono track panned 50% left still has content in the right channel, so is it going to show up in the Mid or the Side? This, I think, is the confusion you're referring to.
 
The answer is that it's both Mid and Side. Whatever portion of that track's amplitude that is common to both channels falls into the Mid component and the part of it that's different falls into the Side component. Remember, we're not talking about discrete instruments here, but percentages of amplitude across the frequency spectrum. In this example, you'll still hear that track when you solo either the Mid or Side, because it's both.
 
So what happens to that track when you raise the Side component using Channel Tools or MSED? Assuming the left and right channels are spectrally identical, you'll simply be exaggerating the L/R volume difference. In other words, panning it further to the left. If it had been a one-track mix, you could have achieved the same end with the pan slider.
 
But this track is likely part of a whole mix consisting of other elements that are each panned differently and that have different spectral content. Consequently, raising the Side is more complex than simply exaggerating all the pan positions in your mix. It's also going to redistribute frequencies across the panorama, because some frequencies are going to be more similar left-to-right than others. Effects such as reverb (both artificial and natural), chorus and delays all contribute to subtle left/right imbalances that will be emphasized by raising the Side.
 
On a full mix, making room for a vocal by lowering the Mid portion often makes more sense than raising the Side. But using M/S EQ makes even more sense. Why turn down center-panned frequencies that don't conflict with the vocal? You'd just be losing things like kick and bass that weren't hurting anyone to begin with, and are necessary to keep the energy up. With Mid/Side EQ, you can lower just those frequencies that would otherwise mask the vocal, while keeping the lows and highs intact.
 
If you want to take it one step further, there are plugins that transparently make room for the vocal by dynamically dipping only conflicting frequencies and leaving everything else alone. 
 
 
 
 


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#12
interpolated
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 20:12:34 (permalink)
My apologies.....I will rethink my answer.
post edited by interpolated - 2017/07/05 21:04:28

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Anderton
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 21:28:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 17:43:21
sharke
I would think that if you're going to do this, it's probably a good idea to make sure that your "sides" are very mono compatible, because if they're not (i.e. they sound phasey when collapsed to mono) and you're attenuating the solid "mid" component then I suspect it would make things sound even less solid in mono.



One great aspect of binaural panners is they collapse properly into mono, because of the way the accentuation is derived in the first place from a mono signal.

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davec69
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 21:28:56 (permalink)
Waves has a cool program called "Center" which could help.  I think it's designed for full mixes, but should work on the master buss.
 
http://www.waves.com/plugins/center
 

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cparmerlee
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/05 23:34:09 (permalink)
bitflipper
most components are not exclusively left, right or center. A mono track panned 50% left still has content in the right channel, so is it going to show up in the Mid or the Side? This, I think, is the confusion you're referring to.

Yes.  Thanks.
 
bitflipper
If you want to take it one step further, there are plugins that transparently make room for the vocal by dynamically dipping only conflicting frequencies and leaving everything else alone.

The so-called "dynamic EQ" products.  And I guess it follows that the best of all worlds might be to do dynamic EQ on vocal-sensitive frequencies ONLY on the MID portion.  I think Ozone can do that, but I have never tried it.

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bitman
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 03:49:34 (permalink)
kellerpj
bitman:
Interesting.  I'm interested in what you said because I often mix in headphones.
What do you mean by the phrase "stacked low to high on each side"?
 


Like mixing in mono, sounds are stacked more or less according to frequency range trying to make certain there is little overlap if possible for greater clarity and less masking.
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interpolated
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 13:53:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 17:44:32
Another way to make room for vocals is to use dynamic EQ. So when a threshold level in a certain spectral range is met then the equaliser will dip or expand. Using Mid/Side assignments you can decide if you want to increase the mono component of the vocal track or decrease the sides in that area. Note, this only triggers when the vocal happens.
 
Also it's worth noting you can do this with Cakewalk LP EQ however I don't feel my aging PC can handle the power it requires especially if there is lots of other things going on.
 

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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 14:01:45 (permalink)
Also mixing on headphones can be deceiving. Sure it can be done with the right effects and environmental emulations like Focusrite VRM, Waves NX (which now supports some common headphone models) and Sonarworks Reference 3 which I personally use as it it uses eq correction and allows you alter the response of the bass and slope? of the headphone response.
 
Anyway happy mixing.

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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 17:02:00 (permalink)
If you know what you want to lower then what about side chaining compression to make the offending material duck under what you need the room for.
 
Like side chaining a guitar with compression to duck under Vocals.
 
 

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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 18:16:48 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
If you want to take it one step further, there are plugins that transparently make room for the vocal by dynamically dipping only conflicting frequencies and leaving everything else alone. 




Can you describe this further: what plugin? Side-chain settings/routing?, etc.?
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 21:24:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/07/24 18:19:11
The first one I ever saw was Elevayta's Space Boy, a little dated now - AFAIK it was never ported to 64-bit - but still available, and cheap.
 
What I use for this is Meldaproduction's MSpectralDynamics. That's not the main thing MSpectralDynamics does, just one of its more obscure talents. It's also the most transparent one that I've tried.
 
All these plugins work the same way: a sidechain signal is analyzed and its spectrum is inverted for the main signal's EQ. You set it up the same way you'd set up a sidechained compressor.
 
A less-expensive alternative would be MAutoDynamicEQ, which I see is currently on sale for 50 EUR. It's a superb dynamic equalizer (also an excellent all-around EQ) that supports a sidechain input, and it's also adept at EQ-matching and (more helpful) EQ inversion, e.g. analyzing a signal and inverting its spectrum to apply to another signal.
 
Another one is Fabfilter's Pro-MB. It's a cross between a dynamic EQ and a multiband compressor. For carving EQ, you want to be sure it's in Minimum Phase mode.
 
 


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Jeff Evans
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 22:21:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/07 15:07:46
The best way to keep vocals audible is to have a look at the music and carefully look at what is playing behind the vocals while the vocals are present.  Pull out anything that looks like it might conflict with the vocals.  Or turn it down but taking out stuff is better.  Look for melodic lines that are happening at the same time as the vocal phrases and remove them.  Let stuff weave in and out of the vocals e.g. the vocal phrase stops then some melodic line comes in etc...Look for chords that are conflicting time wise with the vocal phrases too.  Pull them out.  Don't be afraid!
 
A great way to set vocal levels to the music is through a small mono speaker down at low volume with the L+R mix in the speaker.  It is easy to have the vocals too high in level compared to the music.  That sounds amateur to me.  Once you clear the path musically behind the vocals then they can be actually be set lower and it all sounds better.
 
Keep an eye on the vocal dynamics too so they are basically even and none of the quieter parts are getting lost.  If you do all this then you don't have to carve out any room or space for the vocals at all, they will naturally be heard. And it sounds better like this.

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#23
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 22:31:40 (permalink)
Sometimes older or freeware stuff works just as well.....sometimes though, you need the correct tools for the job.

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cparmerlee
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 22:40:46 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
The best way to keep vocals audible is to have a look at the music and carefully look at what is playing behind the vocals while the vocals are present.  Pull out anything that looks like it might conflict with the vocals.  Or turn it down but taking out stuff is better.



Good music arrangers have always used these techniques, long before there were DAWs.  Fundamentally it is the same process.  Decide what is most important to hear and get the clutter out of the way.  The most brilliant musical lines are no good if they get in the way of more important material.

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interpolated
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 22:49:00 (permalink)
Does anybody actually know whether the track is stereo or they have the original arrangement. Obvious fix would be to fix things in the mix if this is the case. However if the mix is now stereo the Mid/Side is going to save his ass.
 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/06 22:55:45 (permalink)
If the backing music is in stereo and one has no control over it then some of the techniques mentioned here might need to be used for sure.  I am assuming though that one has control over the whole multitrack session.
 
cparmerlee
 
 
Good music arrangers have always used these techniques, long before there were DAWs.  Fundamentally it is the same process.  Decide what is most important to hear and get the clutter out of the way.  The most brilliant musical lines are no good if they get in the way of more important material.

 
And if one does have the multitrack in front of them then this still applies. The great thing now is that we can so easily see what is going on as well as hear it.  A tasteful lead guitarist for example should not even play while the vocals are present.  (or if they do then it is a line that does not clash very much and might be slower etc..) But even if they do and they play a real nice line I have been known to actually move some of that material around and move it out of the way of the vocals.  It still works and then you do get to hear that brilliant line after all.
 

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thedukewestern
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/07 16:27:34 (permalink)
cparmerlee
Jeff Evans
The best way to keep vocals audible is to have a look at the music and carefully look at what is playing behind the vocals while the vocals are present.  Pull out anything that looks like it might conflict with the vocals.  Or turn it down but taking out stuff is better.



Good music arrangers have always used these techniques, long before there were DAWs.  Fundamentally it is the same process.  Decide what is most important to hear and get the clutter out of the way.  The most brilliant musical lines are no good if they get in the way of more important material.


You mean mixing?  Yes - mix engineers have been known to mix =-)

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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/07 18:52:40 (permalink)
Vlar
cparmerlee
 
If you want to take it one step further, there are plugins that transparently make room for the vocal by dynamically dipping only conflicting frequencies and leaving everything else alone. 




Can you describe this further: what plugin? Side-chain settings/routing?, etc.?


 
TDR Nova EQ is what I've been using to do these dynamic EQ duties - I'm using the free one and it works great.
http://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/
Route all the tracks that are in the way of your vocal into an aux channel or buss and insert the Nova EQ on that track. Go to your vocal track and send it to the sidechain input of the Nova EQ.  Flip between the different metering views on the EQ to see the instruments and then switch to the sidechain input to see the vocal and carve out the space you want.  You can hear it in real time and it is a great tool that makes a difference.
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Re: How to lower the volume of the center of a mix to free some room for vocals ? 2017/07/07 20:42:43 (permalink)
+1 for TDA-NOVA and well worth the €50 for the "Gentleman's Edition" 

I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!) 
Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's
PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, 
Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele
Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500,
Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
#30
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