MIDI XG effects per channel

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jmasters41
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2017/07/06 07:45:32 (permalink)

MIDI XG effects per channel

My DAW (I know its old):
Windows 7
Cakewalk Sonar 7 Producer
TASCAM US-144MKII USB 2.0 Audio/Midi interface
Yamaha DGX-202 (76 keys)
 
I have a project with multiple MIDI channels outputting to my Yamaha DGX. I've set the bank and patch numbers correctly as specified in the DGX manual, and I get the tones i expect output from the DGX. The problem is that the tones are not quite the same as what they are normally (when the keyboard is disconnected from MIDI and i just play the keys). I have found this is because of some of the XG effects (Chorus, Reverb, DSP, ..) appear to not be taking effect on each channel as Cakewalk plays back the MIDI. So that brings me to SysEx messages, for which i have setup multiple SysX banks in my Sonar project to send the messages i think i should be sending:
 
(I'm operating under the assumption that the XG Effect TYPES will be the same across all MIDI channels, but the effect levels can vary across channels??)
 
I have a MIDI grand on MIDI channel 6 and these are my SysX bank messages (copied settings from default Yamaha XG Effect settings for the MIDI grand):
 
Set General MIDI
Set XG On
 
Set Chorus Effect to Chorus1
Set DSP Effect to Hall2
Set Reverb Effect to Hall2
 
Set Chorus Send Level for Channel 6 to 0x20
Set DSP Send Level for Channel 6 to 0x26
Set Reverb Send Level for Channel 6 to 0x00
Set DRY level for Channel 6 to 0x40
 
I have experimented with sending all of these, and trying different DRY levels, different Reverb levels, etc.. Nothing comes close to sounding like what the MIDI grand should sound like.
 
Any insights / suggestions would be appreciated? Thanks
 
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    tlw
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    Re: MIDI XG effects per channel 2017/07/06 10:01:04 (permalink)
    just had a look at an XG-202 manual. That is one complicated synth, and it's many years since I used an XG module....

    One thought struck me - might using the initial setup send function to send to Sonar all the various settings do the trick? Then play that data back to the synth at the beginning of playback. Might be easier than trying to hand-craft sysex.

    Another possibility is that the synth itself can't handle using the built-in effects if multiple voices are in operation. Some can, some can't, some can but only a subset of functions are available (e.g. only one reverb that gets shared by all voices).

    A different approach would be to record the audio "dry", one voice at a time and without any effects at all, one voice per Sonar audio track. Then add the effects, reverb etc. in Sonar using plugins.

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    ptheisen
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    Re: MIDI XG effects per channel 2017/07/06 15:38:47 (permalink)
    I'm not familiar specifically with your Yamaha DGX-202, so I can't say for sure whether this applies, but I do know that each standard Sonar midi track has built in controls for Chorus and Reverb amounts. These controls can be seen at the top of the right hand column of the inspector window as long as neither the clip or track tabs at the top of the inspector are active. The default setting is zero. The settings of these controls are most likely being sent to the DGX at playback, and overriding any corresponding settings that were native to the DGX. So you can play with those controls to get the amounts of Chorus and Reverb where you want them. For everything else, you'll probably still need to resort to SysEx. Hope this helps!
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    jmasters41
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    Re: MIDI XG effects per channel 2017/07/06 23:13:10 (permalink)
    It turns out it was the controllers for Chorus and Reverb that were being zeroed out that caused my output tones to have kind of a nasal dry sound. And the controllers are not SysEx messages, but they are MIDI messages though. It's pretty straightforward to add a Chorus or Reverb event at the beginning of each MIDI track in Sonar, and that fixed my problem.
     
    But as a side note, the Yamaha XG effects flow process for MIDI is pretty complex, allowing feedback and multiple level controls per channel per effect (Send, Return, Dry, Controller), not to mention different effects types for Chorus, Reverb, and DSP. I still dont have a firm grasp on all of it, but i've got my sounds close enough to their original tone. Figuring this out was a pain ... hope someone else who reads this can save some pain and time if they ever encounter the same problem...
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    lfm
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    Re: MIDI XG effects per channel 2017/07/07 11:52:34 (permalink)
    jmasters41
    But as a side note, the Yamaha XG effects flow process for MIDI is pretty complex, allowing feedback and multiple level controls per channel per effect (Send, Return, Dry, Controller), not to mention different effects types for Chorus, Reverb, and DSP. I still dont have a firm grasp on all of it, but i've got my sounds close enough to their original tone. Figuring this out was a pain ... hope someone else who reads this can save some pain and time if they ever encounter the same problem...


    I fiddled with that a week ago on my CLP-535.
    Quickest way to learn is probably to do as tlw suggested - use the midi initialize(called in my piano), record that and look as you study midi manual. If Sonar let you just record that on a clip - or if Sonar send sysex to separate manager - don't remember since not ran Sonar for some years now. It's becomes a collection of sysex and controllers.
     
    In my case I wanted to prepare a couple of rhodes stuff with phaser and tremolo, ready to go.
    Solution was in the insert effects on high mid addresses 03 01 00 to put dsp effect chosen as msb + lsb(two bytes).
    Then effect parameter #1 03 01 02 where data is single byte from the parameter table for that effect. The effect parameter number is never sent, it's addressed like above. Effect parameter #2 high, mid  low address 03 01 03 etc.
     
    So F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 40 F7 where 4C is CLP535 model id set parameter #1 of chosen effect earlier to 40.
     
    No way I could read out that from manual itself, it was through studying initialize.
     
    I really like the organic feel of the Yamaha pianos compared to any VST stuff I tried.
    Only thing I don't like is equal tuning as they did - and send sysex to alter octave tunings of some I prefer that just differentiate a couple of cents here and there without the need to choose key to sound ok.
     
    But the current tuning are sent in midi intialize as well, and can be altered there.

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