Normalization

Hi guys I recorded a song in 3 passes all with the same input volume, settings et cetera . Into the 4th track I cut and paste it the best versions of each line or 2 that I sang. Even though everything is pretty equal there might be just the slightest bit more attack on one line than another. Is normalization the way to smooth that track out or should I just do it the man's way and increase DB on particular clips as necessary? How about limiting? Or a leveling app plug in? Thank you.
WSS

I don't Normalize anything, some swear by it. Me personally, Its destructive and anything destructive I tend to stay away from. Similar results can be obtained non destructively using Automation.
I use compression, limiting and I also use automation <- A lot.
I prefer Automation vs. limiting/compression because to me it sounds more natural (like I used to do riding faders with my fingers).
However the mastering stages is a totally different animal and I use tons of compression and limiting.
 
Its personal choice my friend. these are just my opinions.

I been "destroying" audio since 2004..  Your rendering at 32 bit and I dare anyone to point out a degradation in the audio. That's a myth that needs to go away. 

Can SONAR normalize to RMS level ?
 
Kenny 

kennywtelejazz
Can SONAR normalize to RMS level ?
 
Kenny 

Simply put, no. Normalizing uses peak detection, not RMS.
It boosts the volume until the maximum amplitude is reached somewhere in the data.
So essentially what it does is find the highest peak and raise the data to that highest peaks maximum.
(maximum possible volume without distortion or clipping)
Thus there is no compression or limiting done, it is more of a "Squeeze every once of juice" out of a wave file.
 
Quieter passages are better done in smaller segments as trying to normalize a wave file that has loud and quiet data is not recommended. your better off splitting the file and processing each separately.
 

Not really sure where your going with this. I spent some time writing that comment
I hope were not just using this thread to make a point.
 

BobF
That Wave Editor looks like Tracktion to me ...

I think you are correct.
 
Is funny how each DAW's have their own unique set of tools and do different things.
That's what makes them all individually special. I wouldn't start a project in Tracktion (I got it free with my Mackie) but it has some cool features and uses.

Sound Forge and wavelab can normalize by RMS. I think some of the offline features could maybe tweaked rather than being hidden away under the process menu.

chuckebaby
Not really sure where your going with this. I spent some time writing that comment
I hope were not just using this thread to make a point.
 

 
Hey Chuck ,
 
I did see your original non edited post about 5 hours plus ago West Coast time .
It seemed a lot more friendly than this one you have up now  ..
 
FWIW,  I would have responded to your post at that time , the thing is I had a nice 45 min drive to a doctors office.
Then  I wound up having a Echo Cardio test done which lasted an hour in itself and then I had a nice 45 min drive home ...
 
When I get home  I see this above edited post ....
 

chuckebaby
I don't Normalize anything, some swear by it. Me personally, Its destructive and anything destructive I tend to stay away from. Similar results can be obtained non destructively using Automation.
I use compression, limiting and I also use automation <- A lot.
I prefer Automation vs. limiting/compression because to me it sounds more natural (like I used to do riding faders with my fingers).
However the mastering stages is a totally different animal and I use tons of compression and limiting.
 
Its personal choice my friend. these are just my opinions.

FWIW , I did see this above quoted post of yours yesterday and I was actually surprised you even responded to me ....
I thought you had made it clear that you didn't care for normalizing your music and I was OK with that ....
 
FWIW I never used to use Normalize much in my music ...Then something changed in my workflow ...
I stopped giving two hoots about where my music fits in within the loudness wars while I am creating my music  and I switched over to a primarily subtractive style of workflow ...
Instead of boosting things I cut things back to make space and room for my musical elements in my songs and mix's...This is not a hard and fast rule written in stone but I find that I get better results that way ...
Sure if i need to boost something I will but that is usually an anomaly within the song ...
 
Now I'm not here to push my workflow on anybody , but while I'm cutting and doing a subtractive style of mixing and arranging while I'm keeping my master peaking around - 6 db max  it only makes sense that at some point I may have to readjust my gain staging to accommodate this type of workflow ...  
In the past I used to make up the gain in a Pseudo Mastering Stage within SONAR ..
For the record that approach does not work for me at all ...
Here are a few of the ways I did that ...I would have a mix that barely touched - 6 db's w nothing on my master bus .  I would then add the typical Pseudo Internet approved / suggested tips and tricks that many people seem to put a lot of faith and trust in ...
You Know the old top of the heap u tube videos from all the big guys ..
Hey Monkey See , Monkey Hear , Monkey Do Right ? 
NO I happen to choose door number One after much personal trail and error  " NOT door #2 or door #3  lets leave it at that ."
 
From a very simplistic point of view it only makes perfect sense that if I'm gonna be pulling out a lot of unneeded frequency's out of my tracks just to make them gel together then maybe at some point I may have to brings all my tracks back into a workable perspective while keeping the sounds I have created ...
My #1 rule is I always will commit to the sound I'm recording while I am playing it If I don't like I will rerecord it again with a sound I LOVE ..Rinse and repeat ...
Having said all that while working within SONAR I always edit my tracks in all areas first to pretty them up.  Once I'm done w that phase of editing, only then will I consider bouncing to clip or track and then normalizing each track to a respectable real life gain that represents my original stated sonic bulls eye  ... 
This type of workflow within SONAR was the jumping off point for me when I decided to start using normalization
 
Now lets get to this so-posed point I'm being accused of making ...
 
The OP starts a thread about normalization of audio Right ? Just because many SONAR users may be used to thinking of normalization from a SONAR point of view as Normalize to Peak Value does not mean that one should easily dismiss the other side of the coin ...Normalization to RMS value ....Right ?
 
Let's flip the coin  , Heads to Peak .Tails to RMS , Yin to Yang ,  the tides of the ocean & the cycles of the moon ,  boost EQ ...pull back on EQ ....
 
 
There,  is that now enough ammunition to have justified me crossing over the line just to make a point ? 
 
SO I put up a screenshot of Traction Waveform 8 the dialog box clearly shows a very simple way of setting up an audio export tailored for a mix normalized to RMS ...
I'm not pushing the DAW I'm asking about a workflow and can it be done in SONAR ..
.If not now hopefully in the future ...
 
 
For the record here's the point in this conversation where I'm either gonna make friends or enemy's ...
Wait , I have plenty of both already so lets say more of each or lets find out who's gonna flip flop and change sides
 
I happen to know first hand that many of the forum members here absolutely LOVE playing with their plugs .
Some guys will go out and spent tons of money on them ...Hey I would too if I had the coin ...
Some folks Love the final stages of prepping their songs for what ever their chosen form of delivery may be ....
This is the part where I would get stuck ...
I would try exporting out of SONAR a mix that was Loud and proud and it failed to please me ...and others in truth
Then I would try to use a SONAR Mix Template on an export of my fully mixed tune that was set at at moderate
pre mastering level with lots of headroom ...by the time I got done tweaking the extra mastering effects some elements of my song sounded radically different that I had originally recorded and mixed them ...
IMHO, it was way to much hit or miss ...bear in mind I am taking full responsibility for the mixed results that I have achieved.....I will accept the full blame ...
The day I started exporting my pre mastered mix out of SONAR and putting it in a musical app that allowed me to normalize my SONAR mix to RMS as opposed to Peak level was the day I was able to feel much better about the music I was doing ...Keeping in mind that I may be the only person that feels that way ...
 
 
I played around between -15 to -12 db with my export setting for normalize to RMS and once I found a setting that worked for my song I kept that export / mix ...
You would think that that would be the end of the story right ? No it wasn't ...
Now I had a mix sounding exactly the way I wanted to hear it so I then brought that mix / export back into to SONAR ...then a real funny thing happened ...
 
I was able to Load up a SONAR Mix Template as a starting off point and once I pulled the gain back a little on my normalized to RMS export I was able to much much better results dialing in my tune than I had ever been able to have done before in my past workflow ...once again I may be the only person that likes it but hey it 's progress ..  
 
That's about it for now ...for those of you that want to find out if I'm full of it ...go right ahead
 
Take one of your premastered mix's that your happy with ...put it in an app that can normalize to RMS find a setting you like ...export it ...bring it back into SONAR ..then compare it to the same premastered mix you did in SONAR  where you didn't normalize it , you know the other mastering project of the same song where you took all your high end plugs to sweeten it up ...compare the two what did you notice ? YMMV depending who you are 
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 
 

OK I found a plug-in that does it. £220 though.
 
Although offline rendering in a DAW is a luxury it seems.  Currently I start of quiet and monitor the level until I'm happy with it.  You could also group your comp tracks to an auxiallarly bus to control the average volume on there. Say you wanted -10dBFS, you could set that as your threshold, a small ratio and gain reduction to keep things level.
 
 
 

BobF

kennywtelejazz

BobF
That Wave Editor looks like Tracktion to me ...

 
Yes Bob , that is Traction  Waveform 8 ..
The screen shot is of Snarky Puppy the song clip I posted in your Coffee House thread ...the tune was done in SONAR brought into Waveform 8 for some object oriented edits and RMS normalization then brought back into SONAR for final export ...
 
Kenny

Cool technique, Kenny.  I'm going to play around with the concept some.  Thanks for sharing.
 

Hi Bob ,
 
I kind of stumbled on this workflow by accident VIA having the option available  .
 
If you happen to be using the same Musical App I have mentioned cool.
 
Thank you for the kind word , I hope it works out
 
Kenny