Helpful ReplySo much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help

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SquareSpiral
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2017/07/30 20:10:26 (permalink)

So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help

Hi All,
 
First let me say I am a long time Sonar user (going right back to 12Tone Cakewalk ver3!) and I love this software but my recent instability problems have me going crazy!! - Maybe you guys can point me in the right direction.
 
Here's the thing though, I have so many new things in the chain that I don't know where to start looking to iron out the issues. I built a brand new PC for my Sonar rig a few months back using the latest and greatest components, I have a new Audio interface and obviously all my Software and plugins are newly installed, add to that the monthly updates from Cakewalk themselves and I have too many variables in the possibility chain.
 
The PC spec is as follows:
Asus Z270A motherboard
Intel i7 - 7700K - Running at stock speed of 4.2GHz
32Gb Corsair DDR4 memory (2x16Gb)
Gigabyte Nvidia GTX 1050Ti graphics adaptor
500Gb SSD system drive
500Gb SSD samples drive
2Tb 7200rpm HDD Projects drive
 
Audio interface - Audient iD14 via USB2
 
Sonar Platinum - fully updated
 
At first i thought the issue was with SampleTank 3 as it seemed when ever I pushed it a little I would get a crash of Sonar causing to to have to shut down. Then I got similar results in Kontakt. Now I am getting issues with things like VocalSync and even just adding the Adaptive limiter to one project made it crash and now that version of the project won't even load without going directly into a crash!!
 
HELP!!!! - This is not why I spent all that money specing and building a brand new PC! My 5 year old i7 lapto was pretty much rock solid unless I REALLY pushed it.
 
Where do I start guys??
 
Thanks in advance
 
Chris - SquareSpiral 

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#1
Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:19:55 (permalink)
You say "recent instability problems" but it seems to coincide with your new build. Have you checked your dpc latency? http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon.
What operating system?

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#2
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:30:15 (permalink)
Hi Brando,
 
Well it is obviously to do with the new build but I am unsure where the issue(s) stem from from. I'm running Windows 10 Home. I can check this dpc latency you mention but dropouts are not the issue here - we are talking hard crashes of Sonar causing it to exit.
 
Chris 

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#3
Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:32:22 (permalink)
I would also verify you are using usb 2 not 3. I would check/disable other audio sources - especially "HD audio" associated with HDMI audio. I see your audient is bus powered. Is there an ac adapter option?

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#4
auto_da_fe
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:32:52 (permalink)
Have you tried rebuilding aud.ini ?
 
Rename your current one aud1.ini or something like that and they let Sonar rebuild one.  That cured me some time ago.  
 
Jeff

HP DV6T - 2670QM, 8 GB RAM,
Sonar Platypus,  Octa Capture, BFD2 & Jamstix3, Komplete 10 and Komplete Kontrol
Win 10 64 
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Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:42:09 (permalink)
SquareSpiral
Hi Brando,
 
Well it is obviously to do with the new build but I am unsure where the issue(s) stem from from. I'm running Windows 10 Home. I can check this dpc latency you mention but dropouts are not the issue here - we are talking hard crashes of Sonar causing it to exit.
 
Chris 


DPC latency isn't only about reducing/eliminating dropouts - it's system stability as well. It gauges how efficient your drivers are. But yes,  - if you can ascertain that SONAR crashes are attributable to a particular plugin only - then your problem is easy to solve. I didn't think this was the case. 
BTW - are you running SONAR as administrator?

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#6
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 20:54:07 (permalink)
Hi Brando,
Thanks for your help.
 
Ok - just to catch up:
The iD14 is attached to a USB2.0 port and is also running from its supplied AC adaptor.
Just checked through the additional audio devices (mostly mother board built in audio) which I thought I had disabled and found them all active! So I have now disabled all but the iD14 which is permanently connected.
 
Again I thought I had configured my shortcut to run as admin but alas that was also not the case! Now fixed.
 
As to the DPC monitor - i have it running but must confess I don;t really understand what I am looking at - Any pointers?

www.squarespiral.co.uk
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Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 21:17:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SquareSpiral 2017/07/30 21:26:31
In a nutshell, if the application tells you your system should be capable of real time audio, at this point you should be fine. Later it is a useful tool for optimization. However, iF you are having a large number of hard page faults, you can track those down on the "Processes" tab. If there are any other problem areas, you can, for example, go to the driver tab and click on the top of the "highest execution (ms)" column - to see which driver file is consuming the greatest cycle time.
Can you load SONAR with a small basic project without a crash? Say a simple soft synth, single track? If so, I would run LatencyMon as a baseline without SONAR, and as well as with SONAR running with the project loaded.
What driver version are you using on your audient? If it's current, I would try rolling back one version, etc. If you still have access to the laptop, can you try the audient with it? IF you still have access to the laptop, have you tried it with the audient?
Usually motherboard audio devices are not a problem. I use my motherboard's audio for system sounds myself. It's the HDMI device which can create a conflict. 
 

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#8
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/30 21:36:50 (permalink)
Ok thanks.
 
Latency monitor seems happy enough with the system so far, and during the time I have had it running its not shown any hard page faults.
 
The thing is that the crashes are not consistent, so hard to pin down to any one source - My first suspect was ST3 but that soon became clear was not an isolated case. You have given me some food for thought and things to implement as a starting point so i will monitor further issues going forward.
 
Thanks again for your time - I will report back over time as to my progress
 
Cheers! 

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#9
Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 01:11:12 (permalink)
Best of luck. You're right that intermittent crashes are the most challenging. Platinum is running extremely well here on a way old, far less capable system than yours. I routinely use tons of plugins and rarely (almost never) have crashes. I've completely eliminated 32 bit plugs, which would be another potential crash source.
Another potential may be sleep/power settings on your USB (should be high performance/never sleep).
Cheers

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#10
chuckebaby
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 01:56:47 (permalink)
your next crash take note of the plug ins you are using and then you'll have to determine which you believe are solid and which might not be solid.
then load those ones you believe to be not solid and wait for it.
These are tough. its a process of elimination.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#11
dwardzala
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 11:24:34 (permalink)
Are any of your plugins 32 bit?  Those seem problematic, although I haven't seen many problems reported lately with them.  That could be because many people have migrated to 64 bit only now, though.

Dave
Main Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD
MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller
Win10 x64 Home
Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d)
 
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#12
msorrels
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 11:51:54 (permalink)
Zip up a collection of your crash dumps and put them on the net somewhere and post a link here.  I can look at them and at least give you a better idea of what is crashing.  Right now you don't really have enough info to go on without analyzing your crashes.  No guarantees what I'll be able to tell, but it at least might help you narrow your focus.
 
As a rule with Win10 it almost always comes down to not applying all the updates for Windows, not applying all the updates for the now half-dozen runtime libraries (which plugin developer's installers should install but don't or install older versions that don't work with Win10).  Sometimes it's a 3rd party utility (anti-virus, malware scanner, firewall scanner, window screen utility) that just doesn't work well.  There are so many poorly written real-time anti-virus scanners it isn't funny.  You don't need and should never run any "real-time" scanners on a DAW.  I've also seen a handful of other odd utilities that wedge themselves into every running process in order do some "cool" effect that more often than not just aren't up to working in a DAW/plugin environment.  Most of these things will show up in a crash dump though.
 
With nVidia cards you usually will need to disable the HDMI sound device, since having it enabled can cause all sorts of strange performance problems.  But I don't think that causes crashes very often, usually just breakups and glitches. 
 
And of course you need to update the drivers for all your hardware, not just your sound card but your motherboard BIOS and drivers for all your hardware too.
 
With Sampletank 3 I recommend not using the VST3 version, it's buggy and will crash SONAR.  The VST2 version is much more stable and reliable.  Some people have no problems with it, but that doesn't mean it's good for everyone.
 
SONAR stores its crash dumps in %APPDATA%\Cakewalk\SONAR Platinum\MiniDumps in .dmp files

-Matt
 
#13
chuckebaby
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 15:06:28 (permalink)
I had more problems with nVidia graphics cards and graphics cards in general, I removed them and use my onboard dual DVI. Because we are not playing world of Warcraft here, we really don't need great video cards. As a matter of fact, personally I believe the only time you should be using a graphics card for your DAW (DAW only) is if the onboard Graphics doesn't have enough ports for dual or triple screens or what ever you are needing.
 
Its one less thing to worry about when it comes to graphics cards. And again, this is only myself personally, I choose to go the route of the less hardware (only what I need) the better.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
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#14
interpolated
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 15:37:18 (permalink)
Not if you need a lot of sample memory every mb counts.

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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chuckebaby
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 16:05:43 (permalink)
interpolated
Not if you need a lot of sample memory every mb counts.

im not following you ? Do you mean onboard graphics sucking up RAM ?
If so, its tiny. Sonar doesn't require massive amounts of graphics.
 
I will say this though, My Waveform draw is slow. But the trade off is well worth it.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
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#16
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 17:20:05 (permalink)
Just wanted to say thanks to all who have replied and offered advice. I will take the time to review all this info on detail and offer responses later this evening when I am back in my studio.

This is such a great community.

Cheers

Chris - SquareSpiral

www.squarespiral.co.uk
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 18:50:42 (permalink)
chuckebaby
I had more problems with nVidia graphics cards and graphics cards in general, I removed them and use my onboard dual DVI. Because we are not playing world of Warcraft here, we really don't need great video cards. As a matter of fact, personally I believe the only time you should be using a graphics card for your DAW (DAW only) is if the onboard Graphics doesn't have enough ports for dual or triple screens or what ever you are needing.
 
Its one less thing to worry about when it comes to graphics cards. And again, this is only myself personally, I choose to go the route of the less hardware (only what I need) the better.


Or, as is the case with my motherboard, there isn't an onboard graphics port

CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
Custom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
#18
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 19:31:53 (permalink)
Ok,
 
Quick catch up through the suggestions:
 
All pulg-ins are 64bit - I went this route ages ago and stick to it like glue!
 
I still think that ST3 is a major player here as more crashes have seemingly been caused by it than any other thing as far as I can tell. I may well be using the VST3 version so I can happily switch that out for the VST2 version instead if that is more stable.
 
As to the graphics card question - I agonised over this one myself but came down on the side of including a moderately powerful card in the build for three reasons:
1, I often work to picture and felt this would be better handled by dedicated hardware allowing the processor and system memory to me reserved for Sonar.
2, When funds allow I will be getting a second screen as this is my preferred working arrangement for the reason above.
3, I occasionally need to do minor video editing tasks on this machine so I wanted a little power under the hood to accomplish this.
 
Matt Sorrels - You mentioned in your post above about posting my crash dumps - If you have the time to look I would appreciate it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3es1itxrvnedht/SquareSpiral%20MiniDumps.zip?dl=0
 
Again thanks to all taking the time to help!
 
Chris - SquareSpiral

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#19
M@
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 21:22:02 (permalink)
Have you checked your bios settings?
Make sure power throttling / sleep states are disabled.

Very important: check the settings for the ram in your bios i.e. timing, voltage and multiplier.
You might want to try a (different) xmp profile. (Check with Corsair and the Forum there.)

Tracking: Sonar Platinum (X3 Producer, X2 studio, X1 expanded, 8.3) (64bit)
System: Win10 Pro (64bit), Asus  P8Z77 V Le Plus, I7-3770k, 16GB Ram, SSD System drive, Raid1 Recording & Backup drive, VS-700 Set, TC Konnekt 48
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#20
Sanderxpander
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 21:44:53 (permalink)
This is still pretty "anecdotal" evidence but my production laptop doesn't like my friend's Audient ID22 at all. I get frequent pops and even a few crashes with the latest drivers, and couldn't find a solution in a different buffer size or sample rate. My laptop is otherwise rock solid using my RME Fireface UCX or my Behringer X18, or even my other friend's A&H Qu24 or the Behringer X32 at the music school I work at.
 
I don't trust Audient interfaces anymore. It works great on his Mac though. Do you get the same crashes if you try using WASAPI or even MME with the internal sound chip?
 
Btw my laptop runs a 980 and it helped when I installed just the bare NVidia driver set, not that whole GeForce experience BS. With "helped" I mean I got significantly lower latency on LatencyMon and far fewer hard page faults. Also worth checking out.
#21
Brando
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 21:53:15 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
 
..... it helped when I installed just the bare NVidia driver set, not that whole GeForce experience BS. With "helped" I mean I got significantly lower latency on LatencyMon and far fewer hard page faults. Also worth checking out.


Yes this has been my experience with NVidia as well. At least for DAW use. Good call.

Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper
Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL
ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
#22
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 22:02:17 (permalink)
Thanks guys,
 
Power setting all set to off to avoid sleep states and I had to disable xmp when I first configuresd the machine and set it to full auto in the bios as I just couldn't get the system to boot with it in anything other than auto.
 
Thanks for the words of warning about the Audient - although to be fair when I first put this machine together I was still using my Zoom R16 and was having similar problems - The Zoom worked fine with my old laptop rig.
 
So far tonight the system has been stable but i've not been pushing it hard really as I have been n and out of here and other stuff I've been dealing with. 
 
I do wonder about all the extra crap installed by the GeForce experience but again in the (admittedly little) bit of latency testing I did last night I didn't get any page faults even when running a full mix featuring my normal loading of plugins and VST etc. How would I go about keeping just what I need from it and losing the rest?

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#23
riojazz
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 22:16:09 (permalink)
To revisit the comments about DPC Latency Checker, since you asked about that, it was never rewritten for Windows 8 or 10.  It works fine, but the readings are about 1000 too high.  Thus a system that is fine shows as borderline.  If you don't get any red spikes, you are not having a problem with some offending driver.  In my experience, such drivers are things like wireless devices and network interfaces.
 
LatencyMon is optimized for Windows 10, and if that shows you are fine, that's even better.  In other words, your problem lies elsewhere.
 
I used to have Windows crash routinely and I got a free utility that could show me the cause of the crash after I rebooted.  It had 'Blue" in the name, I think, but there are others.  Also, there is a setting in Windows that, when a crash occurs, you can let the machine hang rather than fully reboot.  That may prove helpful to view what happened.

Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit.

Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch.  Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
#24
SquareSpiral
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 22:36:45 (permalink)
I just set lat mon running and spent some time driving the system really hard - loading up full projects and playing, stopping, looping on the fly and jumping all around the timeline while it was playing - that kind of thing.
 
All was looking good until i finally bombed out Sonar by doing this in a project which has a video synced up in the video view.
 
These are the monitor reports for this period:

 

 
 EDIT: - Hmm cant seem to get the images to show?

www.squarespiral.co.uk
#25
msorrels
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Re: So much instability recently but don't know where to start looking!! Help 2017/07/31 23:44:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2017/08/03 12:12:21
OK almost all your recent crashes are Sampletank 3.  Some are the VST2 version, some the VST3 version.  (a few of the crashes are just SONAR itself, one crash from Melodyne, and one Kontakt crash).  But of the July 2017 crashes it's really just Sampletank 3.  In some of the older crashes your using a ZOOM ASIO driver but all the recent ones are the Audient.  There isn't really anything that sticks out though.  So if I were trying to fix this I'd do simple things:
 
I'd uninstall Sampletank 3.  Then completely delete it from c:\Program Files\IK Multimedia\SampleTank 3 and C:\program files\Cakewalk\vstplugins and c:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3.  Don't delete/uninstall your sound library, just the software itself. 
 
Then I'd start SONAR, not open a project, open the plugin manager (from inside SONAR) and then I'd go into the VST options, make sure the paths are correct (and include the VST3 paths) and do a full reset and then rescan everything (without Sampletank installed).  Then when it was done, I'd exit the plugin manager, then exit SONAR and reboot.
 
I'd make sure if I'm running Windows 10 I've turned off Game Mode (see this blog post http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-10-creators-update-your-daw-is-not-a-game/ )
 
I'd download and install the latest 2015 C+ Runtime and the 2017 C++ Runtime from Microsoft
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2977003/the-latest-supported-visual-c-downloads
and (direct link to the 2015 runtime)
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=52685
(the version of VCRUNTIME140.dll you are running is earlier than the one I have)
 
I'd make sure I apply all Windows Updates.
 
I'd get the newest Sampletank 3 from IK (they just shipped an update last week).  And I'd install that.  Then start it stand alone and make sure everything works right there (configure its ASIO standalone settings).  Then start SONAR and let it find it.  It should find both the VST2 and VST3 versions. 
 
While I believe the VST3 version is buggy with SONAR, if you have a project that uses the VST3 version there is no way to "convert it" short of opening it, saving the multi, then removing it and adding the VST2 version and reloading the settings.  That's super painful and I don't recommend it.
 
Sampletank 3 does have issues when the latency on the audio device is too low,  I know it has pushed me to increase my ASIO buffer more than once to get it to stop crashing (I've got a Sampletank 3 test project that won't play without stuttering/stopping unless I have my ASIO buffer set to 20msec, lower than that and it will hiccup, much lower and it crashes.  But my older Focusrite Saffire isn't exactly a low latency device).  I'd consider doubling whatever you are using now, if you can try something 4 times what you have been using.  Even if it's not usable at that level, it might help you narrow the problem.
 
You might also want to try changing SONARs options for Plug-In Load Balancing.  I'm running with it and the multiprocessing engine on, but there are forum posts of problems that the load balancing seems to be causing.
 
I doubt though any of this will fix your problem, though it might push it out or delay it.  If it still happens, then start trying to produce a reproduction case.  While the problem really is Sampletank 3's code, I don't think IK support will be of much use.  If you can get it to happen on command you might at least get them to look at it.  You might want to contact them and see if they can offer any advice, just because I've not had any luck with them doesn't mean you won't.  Good luck.
 
 

-Matt
 
#26
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