Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT?

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space_cowboy
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2017/08/15 18:40:42 (permalink)

Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT?

I have been reading up on the Dangerous Music D-Box http://dangerousmusic.com/product/d-box/
for use in combo with my UA Apollo.  The reviews of the two together are impressive.  
 
Any users with this and SPLAT?  As usual, the amount of info of directly using a product with Sonar is limited.
 
Thanks

Some people call me Maurice
 
SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc.  Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad.  2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1.  More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent.  Zendrum!!!
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    AT
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/15 18:53:57 (permalink)
    To my mind, there is little benefit to a summing mixer for simple summing.  I may be wrong, but we started hearing about "analog summing" in the bad old days of 24 and 32-bit mixing, esp. in Protools.  That is where a lot of complaints came about hearing a difference between digital summing and analog.  Cake was first to a 64 bit engine (I believe) and I find it is extremely difficult to hear any difference between such high quality mixing and good old fashioned analog mixing.
     
    Now, if you've got an expensive board that has a lot of circuitry built-into each channel that is a different animal.  And various mixing engineers I know do use a summer, but usually have it wired up with their analog outboard for another round of compression/EQ, rather than depending upon software equivalents.  That, of course, you can hear.  But just summing out?  For the price of the Dangerous Music you could get a WARM 1176 and WA-L2 for those two classic sounds.  Of course, then you'd want the DM summer, too, for using them when mixing down!  It never ends.

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #2
    space_cowboy
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/15 20:48:29 (permalink)
    AT music is an endless pit that I gladly throw money down.  I can have serious questions about spending money on almost everything - except my music gear and stereo stuff.  We all have our addictions.  In this case, drugs might be cheaper (Just kidding).  
     

    Some people call me Maurice
     
    SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc.  Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad.  2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1.  More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent.  Zendrum!!!
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    Zargg
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/15 21:22:27 (permalink)
    Hi. I have a friend of mine that has / had a DMDB for years.
    He stopped using it a year or so ago, when he changed to a UAD system. He's using plugins to simulate his DMDB now, and says he doesn't miss it. He's got separation and depth in another way now 
    He upgraded to a full Amphion one 18, with an Amp 500 and a Trinnov room correction system before deciding not to have much use for it anymore. 
    As you say, it's an endless pit 
    Just depends where you want to spend it  

    Ken Nilsen
    Zargg
    BBZ
    Win 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII
    Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
     
    #4
    Anderton
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/16 16:27:48 (permalink)
    One of the advantages of something like the D-Box is the quality of the digital-to-analog conversion, which is a weak link in many studios.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    ryecatchermark
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/16 18:01:21 (permalink)
    I was external summing for years with this setup with Sonar... SSL AlphaLink to send 16 tracks to a Neve 8816 Summing Mixer, then the Neve 2 track mix out to a Mytek converter, which I also used as a master word clock generator. I would Monitor through the Neve as well. This setup sounded great! The biggest advantages were you could push the Neve and get a nice soft compression from driving the transformer to get a little more apparent loudness out of the same peak levels, and the width control on the Neve worked really well for spreading things out. I had previously summed through a Mackie 8 Bus Mixer, and man, it was a complete night and day difference between the Neve and the Mackie... makes sense ;-)

    The problem was I bought this stuff used, and used it a lot, and everything was getting to the point of needing servicing. Also you need to constantly run test tones to calibrate your levels, as the Neve would change a bit over time as it warmed up. So I started experimenting with plugins. I'm always trying new combos, but I am able to get 95% of the way there just staying "in the box". I sold everything and simplified. Now I can spend more time making music and less time calibrating and maintaining various pieces of gear. I spent the money on the front end... better mics and preamps and instruments. Good sounds and performances on the way in sound better than summing overly processed garbage on the way out ;-)

    Mark.

    Mark K.
    Asus G752VY Laptop.  Intel Quad i7 6700HQ 2.6 GHz. 32 GB RAM. NVIDIA GTX 980M. Windows 10 Home 64bit. MOTU 828x.
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    space_cowboy
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/16 23:10:14 (permalink)
    Zargg
    Hi. I have a friend of mine that has / had a DMDB for years.
    He stopped using it a year or so ago, when he changed to a UAD system. He's using plugins to simulate his DMDB now, and says he doesn't miss it. He's got separation and depth in another way now 
    He upgraded to a full Amphion one 18, with an Amp 500 and a Trinnov room correction system before deciding not to have much use for it anymore. 
    As you say, it's an endless pit 
    Just depends where you want to spend it  


    The reviews of the Amphions are sweet.  Tell your friend I will give him $500/pair with the amp, as is and I will cover shipping.  They have to work though.  
     
    BTW- where are you in Norway?  I have been to Oslo, Stavanger, Kristiansand, Bergen and a handful of small towns.  Beautiful country.  Sure are a lot of blonde girls.  How do you guys stand it?

    Some people call me Maurice
     
    SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc.  Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad.  2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1.  More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent.  Zendrum!!!
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    SirBones
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/17 04:06:35 (permalink)
    Hey Space_Cowboy,
     
    As I work for Dangerous Music, I can shed some light for you. Cool name by the way. Yes you can certainly use analog summing with Sonar, as ryecatchermark already stated. Why use analog summing? I'll let .
     
    Don't forget though, that the D-Box is three products combined into one. It's a step into analog summing, a transparent monitor controller, and a mastering grade D/A converter. Personally I've been doing analog summing for over five years now (before working for Dangerous) and I won't go back. I think the biggest mistake some people make when trying out analog summing is just throwing a completed mix through whichever brand summing amp that they are testing. The best results come from starting a mix from scratch through the unit because it's a different way to mix.
     
    Give Dangerous a call if you want to talk specifically about the D-Box. Tel: 845.202.5100
    Feel free to ask for me as well, my name is Chris.
    #8
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/17 04:29:52 (permalink)
    There was an experiment recently here on the forum with Starise. He was sending out individual tracks to a nice analog mixer.  And also summing internally in a DAW.  He was setting up the same mix on both systems.  Not at first but once we got the mix refined the mixes were identical.  We were comparing the stereo mixes and to be honest there was such little difference it was not even worth talking about.  I was hearing the two versions here and we did quite a few tests and there was NO big thing in terms of how better one was over the other.  We were not using the Dangerous though but the mixer he was using was pretty decent.
     
    Often these summing boxes will either have transformers in the output stage or a valve makeup gain stage. (Which often includes transformers too) Any differences you hear are more than likely associated with these.  e.g. the Neve summing box has got output transformers in it so yes it will sound a little different.   When the summing is purely resistive followed by a quality active makeup gain stage that is transformerless the differences are actually even harder to spot.  (in a controlled A/B blind test many would not have a hope!)
     
    There are other ways to get transformer and valve effects without using a summing box. e.g. plugins- console emulation etc..
     
    There are cheaper ways to getting quality D to A conversion as well.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/08/17 04:57:36

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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    AT
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/17 13:15:58 (permalink)
    Thanks for stopping by, Chris.  Always nice to have other industry people put in their two cents worth.  Esp. when they help put out nice hardware and leave a number.
     


    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/17 16:00:20 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    There was an experiment recently here on the forum with Starise. He was sending out individual tracks to a nice analog mixer.  And also summing internally in a DAW.  He was setting up the same mix on both systems. 

     
    Were they using the same D/A conversion?
     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    Zargg
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/17 18:01:12 (permalink)
    space_cowboy
    Zargg
    Hi. I have a friend of mine that has / had a DMDB for years.
    He stopped using it a year or so ago, when he changed to a UAD system. He's using plugins to simulate his DMDB now, and says he doesn't miss it. He's got separation and depth in another way now 
    He upgraded to a full Amphion one 18, with an Amp 500 and a Trinnov room correction system before deciding not to have much use for it anymore. 
    As you say, it's an endless pit 
    Just depends where you want to spend it  


    The reviews of the Amphions are sweet.  Tell your friend I will give him $500/pair with the amp, as is and I will cover shipping.  They have to work though.  
     
    BTW- where are you in Norway?  I have been to Oslo, Stavanger, Kristiansand, Bergen and a handful of small towns.  Beautiful country.  Sure are a lot of blonde girls.  How do you guys stand it?



    I guess you'd have to add some more figures for him to go for it  They sound truly amazing! 
    Not quite as good as I liked the Geithain RL 801K (the big ones in the wall) in another acquaintance's place 
    That's his place in the picture. They sound SICK!!!  
     
    I live in Fredrikstad, but come from the northern part. Way above the Arctic circle 
    Fredrikstad is approx an hour drive southeast of Oslo. 20 mins (by car) from the Swedish border.
     
    I like brunettes and redheads, so I'm good 

    Ken Nilsen
    Zargg
    BBZ
    Win 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII
    Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
     
    #12
    Razorwit
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    Re: Anyone using a summing mixer with SPLAT? 2017/08/18 04:41:47 (permalink)
    Hi Space, I use a summing mixer, though not a Dangerous box. I know lots of folks around here aren't really fans of them, but I really like mine. My rig is an SSL X-Rack with 16 channels (fed off an Aurora 16) that sums and then goes to an SSL bus compressor and an SSL stereo eq. I can't speak to how the Dangerous box works, but I'm happy to help if you need a hand getting it set up to work in Sonar.
     
    Regarding what you've been saying about addictions and just liking gear, I totally get what you're saying. Lots of folks have said that they can get the same results from various console emulation and saturation plugs, and honestly, I think they're probably right. Jeff and AT are good folks with good ears who seem to know what they're talking about and I have great respect for them and their opinions. That said, it's not really the point for me. I like the sound that I get out of it, I know how it works, I use it all the time, and I don't have to spend god-only-knows how long fiddling with plugins to get the sound that I want. Are there drawbacks? Sure. But I'm sitting in a room full of knobs and switches and dials and, warts and all, I still think they're kinda awesome and my clients seem to like it as well. For exactly the same reason that the room next to me is filled with real amps with speakers and knobs and pedals and cables, and when I go in there and plug in a guitar it's amazing. Sure, I own and use LOTS of plugins, and I have clients and deadlines and sometimes I don't use all that analog stuff, but I love it anyway. Even when it hums and crackles and is a pain in my ass. Different strokes and all.
     
    Anywho, as far as I'm concerned, if you like that stuff and can afford it, get it and have a grand ol time turning knobs and cranking it up way to hot and distorting the crap out of it and sometimes finding that spot that is just freaking perfect. Let me know if I can help out.
     
    Dean

    Intel Core i7; 32GB RAM; Win10 Pro x64;RME HDSPe MADI FX; Orion 32 and Lynx Aurora 16; Mics and other stuff...
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