Helpful ReplyProcessing guitar

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Westside Steve Simmons
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2017/08/17 12:25:08 (permalink)

Processing guitar

Hi. Does anybody use a pod or other Hardware guitar processor before you get to the computer? If not what would you suggest as a guitar plug-in with lots and lots of cool presets?
Hopefully this forum is okay for that question?
WSS
#1
Sidroe
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 13:28:31 (permalink)
I have used just about every hardware unit out there. Boss units, Yamaha, Digitech, etc.. The Line 6 POD series is probably the most affordable for the quality out there. If you can afford it, the next step up would be a Kemper or Axe-FX but they are pricey. For the last several years I have used nothing but software plugins and have loved every minute of it. Amplitube 4 is getting used on just about everything I do now. I much prefer using the software because you can record the track and if you want to change the amp later you can without the hassle of reamping or recutting the track because the sound wasn't right.
Short answer is hardware units: Line 6 Helix or POD HD500X. (You can pick up older POD HD500s for a very reasonable price if you can find one!) Kemper, Axe-FX.
Software: Amplitube 4, BIAS Amp, S-Gear, TH3, Guitar Rig.
I personally prefer Amplitube 4 but you really need to add the Fender, Fender 2 collections. They really are the crown jewels of Amplitube!! I hear the Mesa Boogie collection is astounding. I have never been much of a Boogie guy but I have heard so much good about that collection I might have to invest in it.

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#2
Westside Steve Simmons
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 13:36:49 (permalink)
Thanks for the info. I guess the convenience of switching sounds in a software plug makes a lot of sense. Do any of the plugs come with a plethora of presets and are any suitable for an acoustic guutar input as well?
WSS
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 14:03:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Songroom 2017/08/17 16:03:09
Scuffham S-Gear is also very popular and affordable. To me, of all the ampsims I own (Amplitube, TH2/3, Waves GTR3 and Guitar Rig) S-Gear sound the most like playing an actual amp. Disclaimer: I'm a keyboards guy and only dabble in guitar playing.

If you pick a sim it can also help to get one that allows you to use custom/3rd party cabinet impulse responses. There's a few professional idiots out there who have sampled just about every cabinet out there with different mics at different distances and angles. It can make a big difference in sound. E.g. S-Gear uses cabinet IRs from Redwirez, and Redwirez sells a "big box" with a huge amount of IRs separately that you can also use in S-Gear.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 14:41:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/08/17 15:01:17
I try and get the guitar sound before it goes into my DAW. There's something organic about using an good guitar pre amp and speaker in the signal chain that is the only thing I find satisfactory. I bought a Blackstar amp which is a lot of fun and is capable of anything, but it just doesn't sing the blues or twang enough. So it does depend on the music style as far as that goes. I stick with my stomp boxes and a Fender Tube Amp because that is what gives the bite and tone for my style of music. 

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#5
Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 15:38:19 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
If you pick a sim it can also help to get one that allows you to use custom/3rd party cabinet impulse responses. 



FWIW TH3 Cakewalk Edition can load IRs, and comes with a bunch of them.
 
I've worked with amp sims for a looooooooong time and I feel what's most important isn't the amp sim itself, but what you put before and after it. For example, I use a multiband compressor to "de-ess" the guitar's highs when running distortion...tune the output with notch filters...restrict the range of frequencies going in...that sort of thing.
 
I'm creating a new set of CA-X amp FX Chains based around TH3 Cakewalk Edition. The original set was kind of a disaster because there had to be two different versions, one for SONAR Artist/Professional and one for Platinum, and whether they worked or not depended on how TH2 was installed. So some people thought they sounded fantastic while others thought they sounded horrible...both were right 
 
The new chains will be unlocked so you can reverse-engineer them. IIRC one of them has 24 filter stages at the output and if you remove any one, it doesn't sound as good (although I also use them to create tone stacks, not just for tuning purposes). For example here are the modules used in a new high gain CA-X amp head called Fat Gain.
 

  • Sonitus Multiband
  • Sonitus Gate
  • Sonitus Equalizer
  • Overloud TH3
  • Sonitus Multiband
  • Cakewalk Multivoice Chorus/Flanger
  • Sonitus Equalizer
  • Sonitus Equalizer
  • Sonitus Equalizer
  • Sonitus Equalizer
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  • Sonitus Equalizer

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#6
Songroom
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 16:02:54 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Scuffham S-Gear is also very popular and affordable. To me, of all the ampsims I own (Amplitube, TH2/3, Waves GTR3 and Guitar Rig) S-Gear sound the most like playing an actual amp.



I own a couple of amp sims, but after reading your post I decided to take look at Scuffham S-Gear and I'm impressed. Good call.

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Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 16:51:36 (permalink)
S-Gear is very good indeed. Just make sure you don't overload the input, but that's true of all amp sims.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Slugbaby
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 17:25:18 (permalink)
I'm a big fan of Amplitube and Guitar Rig sims (but to be honest, i haven't tried many others).
 
Amplitube excels at simulating specific amps.  If you want that '65 Fender Twin or Marshall JCM800, that's what you get. It's very straightforward and simple.  They're licensed to Fender, Orange, Ampeg, and others, so they have to be great recreations.
 
Guitar Rig doesn't seem to mimic specific amplifiers as proficiently, but I use GR when I want a more complicated setup.  You can drop in their "marshall sim", split the signal and send one line through a noise gate, which then routes to a different amp, which then splits again and has the upper frequencies panned Left and the lower frequencies panned right, with separate Delays on each.*
 
I also have a Boss GR-10 around somewhere, but since I have these sims I never really use it.  I've also got a Line6 Spider amp which I could use to hard-code the sound, but the flexibility of the software wins every time.
 
* I've never actually tried this, I just made it up as an example.
 
 
 

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#9
Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 17:41:10 (permalink)
Slugbaby
Guitar Rig doesn't seem to mimic specific amplifiers as proficiently, but I use GR when I want a more complicated setup.  You can drop in their "marshall sim", split the signal and send one line through a noise gate, which then routes to a different amp, which then splits again and has the upper frequencies panned Left and the lower frequencies panned right, with separate Delays on each.*
 
* I've never actually tried this, I just made it up as an example.

 
I have, and it works fine. The Crossover and Splitter modules are the key to multiband processing in Guitar Rig.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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BobF
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 17:53:00 (permalink)
Good tips at http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/-seven-steps-to-amp-sim-goodness/23054
 
I use a DI box instead of relying on INST inputs, peak input at -10 and T-RackS White Channel up front for light compression and LP in the 10-12K range.  This works well with AmpliTube, Guitar Rig, GTR, Ampire, etc.  I'm sure it works great with TH2/3 too, but I can't get past the GUI.  Most of the time I use AmpliTube or the DI out of my Laney IRT Studio with cab emulation off.  I use one of the above with the amp section bypassed for cab/mic processing.
 
 
 

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#11
Brian Walton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 20:56:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/08/17 21:05:19
Westside Steve Simmons
Thanks for the info. I guess the convenience of switching sounds in a software plug makes a lot of sense. Do any of the plugs come with a plethora of presets and are any suitable for an acoustic guutar input as well?
WSS

POD HD is the most viable cheap option on the used market in my experience.  The presets are garbage, so you need to know how to set things up.  However, it does have a computer GUI if you connect via usb which makes programming sounds easy.
 
You can remove the amp sims and use an acoustic guitar, though recording guitar via a pickup is quite frankly a disaster in and of itself.  Guitar pickups just don't sound great.  
 
I strongly prefer playing guitar through hardware into an interface.  
 
Guitar players (myself included) tend to prefer switching between sounds with ones feet while they play.  Doing it in "post" from a plugin is terrible on so many levels.  
 
Are you looking for a solution for yourself or other guitar players (clients)?   If you are the guitar player what is your experience level?
 
Amp with Mic is the real way to do it, but that is not practical for a lot of people.  The really good products like the Kemper, AxeFX, Helix are not exactly cheap, and I'm implying from your initial post that you likely are not in the professional guitarist realm that these tools are really aimed at.  
#12
Afrodrum
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 21:49:28 (permalink)
I used to have POD, Digitech 1101, Vox Tonelab and Axe FX2 and still have and use two real tube amps. These days most of my tunes end up with guitar sounds from Amplitube 4 (Jet City is my favourite) and TH3 (Randalls). The list of factory presets in TH3 is excellent, also you can load third party cabinet IRs, you cannot do that in Amplitube. If you want to check the least expensive option try KAZROG amps (c. $8 each), the emulation of Friedmann is absolutely stunning.
 
Perhaps I would hold any serious investment before Craig Andertons new FX Chains come out.

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#13
BRainbow
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 22:03:11 (permalink)
Line 6 "Helix Native" (VST, AAS) just came out last week.  There is a free 15 day trial.  Check it out. 
 
http://line6.com/software/index.html?hardware=All&name=Helix%20Native&submit_form=set
 
Same sounds and engine as the Helix hardware. Some great stuff in there, except that it is a little light on cleaner sounds. Still, I bought it and am happy with it.  I can use the other stuff that comes with SONAR Platinum to get a good jazz or acoustic sound.
 
I like the Line 6 stuff for hardware and software.  The PODPro line works good for live and re-amping.  I have POD Farm 2.5 and Guitar Rig and use both with good results.  Sometimes I even run them in serial in the FX bin.  You can probably buy a used POD of some sort pretty cheap these days.  In fact, I have an old PODPro and a PODPro-HD (both with pedal-boards) I'll sell you real cheap, but shipping from Hawaii might be a bit spendy.  You can PM me if you are interested.
 
As far as the recording chain goes, I record through a preamp which sends a clean signal to SONAR and another to my Line 6 hardware which then feeds a little Fender tube amp for monitoring.  That way I can play/record with the inspiration of the processed sound (no latency) and yet record a clean signal that can be tweaked later with a plug-in or sent back out to the hardware for re-amping.

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#14
tlw
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/17 23:52:35 (permalink)
Slugbaby
Amplitube excels at simulating specific amps.  If you want that '65 Fender Twin or Marshall JCM800, that's what you get. It's very straightforward and simple.  They're licensed to Fender, Orange, Ampeg, and others, so they have to be great recreations.


As a present or past owner of several of the modelled amps, including two out of the Orange pack and one out of the Fender I'm afraid I don't entirely agree with that.

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Sidroe
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 00:37:39 (permalink)
I agree that the Fender amp sounds that come in Amplitube are not very good but I own both of the Fender Collections and own most of those amps and I can tell you that while not the real thing they are very close. The Marshalls, of which I own 3 of those amps, in Amp4 are a vast improvement.
I really like the capability in Amp4 to change multiple speakers IN the cabs!!!! A 4X12 loaded with JBLs or EVs!! Holy crap!
Never been much of an Orange fan or the Boogie for that matter. Thought about picking up the Jet City.
Anyway, I think everyone has given good solid info here! Now, go make some racket.

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Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 04:01:29 (permalink)
Afrodrum
IPerhaps I would hold any serious investment before Craig Andertons new FX Chains come out.



Well thanks for the vote of confidence  but these aren't designed to be like AmpliTube or Guitar Rig, they're "hey, I just wanna play and get a good sound fast that I don't have to change on mixdown" modules. They're all I've used on my last two projects.
 
FWIW there was a solo I did with a "commercial" amp sim and I really liked, but one of the FX Chains actually gave better articulation. I think it's because of the output notch filtering taking away artifacts. 
 
There's still much to learn about what makes for a really satisfying amp sim experience...but that's what makes it fun 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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danbottomburp
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 06:49:54 (permalink)
Some great posts here,i was wondering if you all had any tips for getting a better sound when using something like Amplitube.
i have just read somewhere that adding a De-esser before the amp sim is a good step,anything else i can try ?
i have the audiobox usb audio interface, are there correct steps for the levels on my input on the audio device and then inside the actual amp sim for a better sound ?
 
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#18
Sidroe
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 10:47:48 (permalink)
I have used the de-esser with great result but just placing a good graphic or parametric eq after the cab does wonders. A good starting point is leave everything flat and roll off everything below 100 Hz. Then roll off everything above 5 Khz. Then fine tune the roll off areas to smooth the response. This proves to be a more musical approach and more flexible.

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Slugbaby
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 13:46:36 (permalink)
tlw
Slugbaby
Amplitube excels at simulating specific amps.  If you want that '65 Fender Twin or Marshall JCM800, that's what you get. It's very straightforward and simple.  They're licensed to Fender, Orange, Ampeg, and others, so they have to be great recreations.


As a present or past owner of several of the modelled amps, including two out of the Orange pack and one out of the Fender I'm afraid I don't entirely agree with that.

That's entirely fair.
When I had my Fender Twin, it was so damned loud that I could almost never push it.  With the sim, i can get the sounds I THOUGHT I was getting at a usable volume.  Same with the JCM800, but maybe my ears just aren't catching the deficiencies.

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chuckebaby
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 15:19:29 (permalink)
Westside Steve Simmons
Hi. Does anybody use a pod or other Hardware guitar processor before you get to the computer? If not what would you suggest as a guitar plug-in with lots and lots of cool presets?
Hopefully this forum is okay for that question?
WSS

Guitar Sims have come a long way but if you want the best possible sound, use a real amp with an SM57 (or better).
I just built an ISO box. it was one of the best things I've ever done (Thanks To Pragi). I not only have classic amps but also classic vintage speakers and here I was using Amplitude, Bias FX and guitar rig.
 
However, when I want to get some decent sounding scratch tracks down for building a song structure I still use the Amp Sims and I still try and get the best sound achievable.
Through trial and error I have personally found that adding a compressor to the front end of the pre amp adds a much cleaner, tamed signal.
 
You don't want to compress the snot out of it, you only want to tame the transients a little bit.
This does 2 things: 1- it gives you a better signal to noise ratio. 2- Allows you to run a good signal without clipping.
I also use a built in noise gate that's in the compressor to rid my signal of unwanted hum from computer monitors.
This gate is only engaged when signal dips below hardly anything.
I could gate it with a plug in later but why bother. its only for silent passages.
 

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#21
Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 15:54:35 (permalink)
danbottomburp
Some great posts here,i was wondering if you all had any tips for getting a better sound when using something like Amplitube.
i have just read somewhere that adding a De-esser before the amp sim is a good step,anything else i can try ?



I think you'll find the article How to Make Amp Sims Sound More "Analog," and the audio examples, very helpful. Avid adopted these ideas in the Eleven Rack expansion pack.
 
You might also enjoy How to Avoid "Hidden Distortion" in Amp Sims.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#22
mudgel
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 16:48:30 (permalink)
I've had a Behringer box of sort for guitar, also the Guitar Rig controller board but only kept the Line 6 POD XT Live. It acts as a USB audio interface for the guitar, I can use the Pod Farm software and just use the plugin sound fx, or process on the way in as the sounds can be accessed inside the floor board or use it live connected to an amp or all of the above, depending how you connect it all up.

Things have evolved a good bit since then but it does me fine for anything live and/or recording. Of course I've got all the other Software sims except Scuffham which I hear is the best.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#23
Anderton
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 17:22:16 (permalink)
mudgel
Things have evolved a good bit since then but it does me fine for anything live and/or recording. Of course I've got all the other Software sims except Scuffham which I hear is the best.



IMHO Scuffham set out to do a limited number of things really well as opposed to trying to be everything to everybody. Both approaches have their merits. What I find most interesting about amp sims is that they're as different as real amps 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#24
Joe_A
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 18:38:49 (permalink)
I use the pre out from my CybertwinSE into a Focusrite channel. Many options.

jambrose@cfl.rr.com  Sonar Plat. Lifetime. Started in Sonar 4, each through 8.5.3PE.
Scarlett 18i202nd gen., Edirol FA-101, M-Audio Firewire 410, AMD Phenom II 1045T six core processor, 8GB DDR3, AMD Radeon HD 6450, dual displays, 1.5 TB SATA HD, USB 2, Firewire 1394A, 1394B, 18/22 mixer, EV Q-66, Yamaha HS50M monitors, few guitars, Fender Cybertwin SE, Fender Cyber foot controller, Boss RC20-XL, misc pedals, etc. Win Home Prem 64 bit.
#25
kennywtelejazz
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/18 22:08:24 (permalink)
I played the same exact guitar for all my lead guitar work on both of these songs .
 
One features amp sim only recorded direct . The other clip is Hardware into amp sim recorded direct ...
 
Can you tell which is which ?
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson/come-dance-with-mytele
 
https://soundcloud.com/gu.../my-good-tele-gone-bad
 
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#26
tlw
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/19 03:54:32 (permalink)
Slugbaby
When I had my Fender Twin, it was so damned loud that I could almost never push it.  With the sim, i can get the sounds I THOUGHT I was getting at a usable volume.  Same with the JCM800, but maybe my ears just aren't catching the deficiencies.


Loudest thing I've ever owned was an Orange OR120. The volume control went from silent at 0 to to shaking the paint off the walls at 2 then just got louder and louder. I had a 1968 Marshall 50W Lead back in the 80s, and that thing was just too loud to really get it into really singing without a fuzz. Had a great, warm, rich, bell-like clean sound though. The harmonically complex Marshall JTM45 through to JTM800 era clean sound is something the emulators don't seem to focus on much, which is a pity.

These days my "go to" amps are a very early model Tiny Terror (which is really nothing like the Amplitube one at all), a Princeton Reverb reissue (which I do think Amplitube gets close to) and a VHT Special 6 which was very cheap, does the small Tweedy blues thing very nicely and isn't so "special" it would be a tragedy if some idiot poured beer into it at a pub gig. Not that I gig much at all nowadays, but I originally got the TT for regular gigging purposes and it's 15 watts handled a lot of small local(ish) gigs without any problems at all.

I don't miss the days where you weren't a "serious" guitarist unless you hauled around a 100W full stack in the slightest.

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#27
Westside Steve Simmons
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/19 22:22:13 (permalink)
Hi guys. First of all thanks for so many great and informative posts. Frankly my skill on the electric guitar is very very limited. I've had a fender 90s Deluxe tele for a long time just don't really have the skill to get a bunch of different and varied sounds out of it. One sim I really liked was Way Way Back when I had a Roland 2480. By the way I've had Cakewalk ever since version 3 on a floppy disk... In one of those Roland FX cards was a set of guitar presets many of which I really like the sound of. Tweaking things to a huge extent doesn't really appeal to me all that much but that's kind of what I had in mind.
I will try the Sims that come with Platinum though.

Thanks again!

As for the acoustic I have a Fishman blender in my Martin and I can get a pretty decent basic track why putting that about halfway but if there is something good for messing with an acoustic guitar tone in a FX plug I'd like to play with that too.
WSS
#28
MANTRASKY
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/20 09:19:43 (permalink)
I'm a guitarist and I'm also an "Old School" player. I believe in a great "Tube Preamp" Summit Audio 2BA-221 as an example, which I love. Really rounds off the digital sound when connecting to the DAW, I also like an SM57 and Royer R-121 on a great guitar cabinet (Bogner 2x12OS w/Celestion V30's) I also own many of the boutique amps and pedal boards etc. Also AxEfx II, Kemper, Line 6 HD, Suhr Reative Load (IR) either for late night recording or when doing a client session where time is money. I'm not a big fan of "Simulators" but I also own most of the top level plug-ins, their fine but for myself there's something to be said where mic placement, room shape & proximity make a huge difference. I also prefer recording my Acoustic Guitars with a Neumann KM 84 (two location/pair) absolutely beautiful. Amp Simulator Plug-ins can also get pricey, for me their pricey because their always "close enough" I can hear the difference through my RME interface (general audience and non-guitarists, most likely not) I've had good results with UAD plug-ins, great advice from the forum!!! 
post edited by MANTRASKY - 2017/08/20 10:23:08

 
 
#29
Westside Steve Simmons
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Re: Processing guitar 2017/08/31 19:57:09 (permalink)
Been playing around with the Overloud th3 and it seems great.
It turns out Roland no longer makes that set of plugins and universal audio had one called Nigel but they decided to take it away.

Thanks guys.
WSS
#30
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