I thought I had some SONAR Midi weirdness going on , then I found out it was user error

I hate having to start a thread like this Any way the short story is , I was sitting here playing a little midi guitar exercise for grins and giggles  .
 
What I wanted to do was to play 4 bars and then copy and paste the first midi clip while transposing each 4 bar segment up a diatonic step up.  Simple right  ? What that would have given me was a quick and easy way to share an exercise I enjoy playing with other guitar players in the form of a midi fie .
 
 I took my first clip , edited it in the piano roll and then copied and pasted it 7 times ...(one at a time in the time line  ) .
Then I highlighted each clip one at a time and did a  process transpose VIA the diatonic one step at a time ...
The basic math was clip 1 no transpose , clip 2 transpose one diatonic step , clip 3 transpose up one more diatonic step ...ect ect..
Here's what my track view looked like after have done all of that .

 
For the life of me I do not understand what had gone wrong , I have done this sort of thing many times while using SONAR so I went through the whole process all over again just to be sure I didn't mess up ...
 
in this picture if you look closely you will see that my first 4 bars maintained the correct note relationships . Each and every 4 bar segment that was transposed up diatonic after those first 4 bars seemed to have snapped to some sort of grid where my notes had gotten doubled or tripled in some cases

 
Here's 2 pics of what it now looks like in staff view ...
first pic is the first 4 bars

second pic is bar 5 through 13...

 
this behavior  seems to be uniform through all my edits ...( no matter what I seem to do )
I have to say this is a real Buzz Kill for me . Maybe  one of you guys can take a look at this and tell me what is going on ...
 
thank you in advance ,
 
Kenny
   
 
 

Bristol_Jonesey
Weird one.
 
Do you know if this was a result of the copy/paste operation or the transpose?

OK , I went back and ran a little test to find out .
These images involves a new instance of my synth . I placed the original correctly edited phrase on a midi track (upper) then I copied it over ...it was the same as the original in both the piano roll and the staff view .
 
New track one copy
 

 
Piano Roll one copy non transposed
 

 
Staff View one copy non transposed
 

 
Next I went and transposed the midi clip up one diatonic step as per this approach .
 

 
Piano Roll transposed one diatonic step . Clearly we can see notes have been duplicated all wrong ..
I wonder did they snap to a scale or some other unknown value ?
sorry about not zooming out enough in this pic the first clip was fine ..+ i wanted to show how off the transpose came out .
 
 

 
Staff View one step transposed as per diatonic transposition
 

 
Clearly something is broken here Yes ? No ?
 
thanks for asking me which it was ..it appears there is a problem with the midi transpose function ..
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 
 

Hangdog Cat
Press "I" to show the inspector. Is the Snap to Scale function inadvertently enabled?

Interesting idea ..this view  ?

I'm not seeing anything engaged ...let me know if you see something ...
 
 
 
all the best,
Kenny

Hangdog Cat
PS: Your pic shows the Inspector for track 2. You should select track 3 and then see if the Snap to Scale function is on.

I'm back , OK here we go , I had to split track 3 to get the inspector to show ....
Here's what it shows .

I can't spot any thing out of the ordinary . Can you ? 
 
Hey Hangdog Cat , thanks for helping me out
 
Kenny

Hangdog Cat
Actually, you were showing the Inspector, but not the relevant portion in the right half. I don't know why this was the case.
 
Anyway, I don't see anything which would be the cause of the MIDI problem. 
 
I'm not so sure I was of any help, but it was worth a shot. 

 
Yes , it was sure worth a shot I can't seem to figure out what could be wrong here either ....
I can understand if this workflow was something I have never done before . The thing is I have been doing this workflow for well over 10 years plus in side of SONAR ..
Today for what ever reason It just ain't happening
Something is causing this transpose to diatonic math not to be work correctly ...
What that may be , I sure as Heck don't know at this point ....
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 

MurkyMark

kennywtelejazz
...to truly hear how powerful diatonic math mode is , all one has to do is take a simple Bach 2 part invention midi file. Place it in SONAR and then transpose both parts as per diatonic math. Go through a few Keys.
With each successive diatonic transposition the song is played using a different Modal Tonality as a Home Base  .
All of Bach's original math and phrases are kept intact yet they are being played as per a new tonality ...
One has to hear it to believe it .....IMHO it is mind blowing

Mind blown just by the concept! I'll be trying it (I'm a huge fan of the two part inventions and have messed with them for about 40 years now).

Yes , by all means give it a try ...IIRC, some real interesting sounds happen when you transpose his music diatonic up a 3rd , 4 th 5th ...downward transpositions also contain very nice changes .. it is certainly worth the time and effort
Anyway , much of what has been giving me problems here has very little to do with affecting Bach's music in a negative way  .
I absolutely love taking his music and doing the transpose midi as diatonic ...the parts sound amazing and what ever little chromatic blip that may happen where the note gets snapped to a scale grid  still sounds very musical to me .
Bach was a genius , I was very fortunate to have studied with a Jazz / Studio Guitar Player named Barry Galbraith . Barry not only wrote a book of Bach's 2 part inventions transcribed as guitar duets in friendly keys for guitar players he also had a guitar quartet comprised of 4 of his best students . The quartet  played many of Bach's fugues and many other composers highly complex multi part music ...Vivaldi was another composer there were charts for ....Barry would play Bass so there was really 5 of us
Anyway I was very fortunate to have been one of the 4 guitarists in his guitar quartet and I still love Bach to this day   even though I lost  my reading and playing chops from back then 
 
have a good one all the best ,
 
Kenny

Hangdog Cat
Can you recommend a website where one can download reasonably accurate MIDI of composers such as Bach and Vivaldi?
 
Thanks.

That's a real tough one now a days only because all the really good sites with the best classical midi files wound up going subscription years ago ...
Places like this for example may let you nab a few here and there ....I was able to grab a few just now under midi.
http://kunstderfuge.com/bach.htm
 
I also had all the charts from Barry's Music and transcriptions ...I couldn't take them with me when I made the move to the West Coast . When I went to see if I could pay to have them shipped out to me " Numb Nut's For Brains " my old room mate from NYC had already gotten rid of them ....
 
Kenny

Anonymungus!
I've been using the diatonic scale setting exclusively for years with no problems. Without looking it up, I believe diatonic = chromatic.
Another method would be: in PRV lasso the notes and then just drag the selection up a half step.
I wonder if it transposes correctly that way.  Good luck! 

Hi Anonymungus!,
 
Like you ,I have been using the diatonic scale setting exclusively for years with no problems..
My Mistake was thinking the thing can handle Bebop style chromatic inflections along the lines of what Miles, Dizzy and what any other decent horn player would play  that's my story and I'm sticking to it 
FWIW, I would try the Piano roll lasso thing the problem is the "new smart tool"  is way too smart for me
 
OK I went back and decided to start something totally new and keep it super simple ...
This posts picture story involves  both the chromatic and diatonic transpose functions found in SONAR   
 
What I did first was to start a new project .  I decided to only play one chord comprised of a C Major triad .
My midi guitar voicing was E,5th string  G,4th string and  C3rd string  .
I only played one measure of music ...Then I copied and pasted each successive chord 2 ways  .
On one track I used diatonic transposition and on the other track I used chromatic transposition ...
here are the pics ,
Track composed of diatonic transposed pastes .....
Track View

Piano Roll View

Staff View

 
In the above examples I only played on chord a triad and pasted all the consecutive chords in VIA diatonic mode.
 
 
Next I took the same one chord comprised of E,G , and C and placed it on a new track ...all tranpostions were done in chromatic mode ..here are the results
 
Track View on the transposed midi.

Staff View

Piano Roll View

Piano Roll View of both tracks stacked

Staff View of both transposed tracks stacked for comparison

 
Well there you have it folks . Both forms of transposition in SONAR have very different attributes that can be very useful  to a musician working with midi .The desired results will depend entirely on what the persons end game is .
Also the results will depend on the persons ears and knowledge of music and music theory ...
 
This post has been my penance for having started a rather misleading topic with a dramatic SONAR title
( which I changed BTW)
Anyway , I was told a long time ago by a friend that you can only save one thing ,,,,
Your A$$ or your Face not both at the same time ...since I already tanked my butt , I may as well try to contribute to my topic in a constructive way that may help someone else ...
HHHmmm , the saving face part ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny