jsg
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When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing Error
Hello, I just finished the 1st movement of my 10th symphony. It uses 48 tracks, including 5 soft synths and consists of about 260 measures. When I playback as MIDI everything sounds exactly as it should. But when I render to audio and record a stereo wave file from all the tracks, one of my synths, Massive, has notes and chords that are "out of sync", coming in late. It seems to be happening only in 2 or 3 places, every other measure that this synth comes in plays back fine. I have no idea what could be causing this. I deleted the track, after copying all the MIDI data and set up a new Massive track, and pasted all the material into it. Didn't fix it. I've been working with soft synths for many years and have never seen this issue. It's a bit anxiety-provoking, as I've spend the last 6 months, every day, writing this piece. If anyone knows what might be causing this, please tell me. I can move just the notes and chords in question backward in time a bit, but this only takes care of the symptom, not the cause of the issue. As I said, MIDI playback is fine, it's only when monitoring while recording (and listening to the recording after it's done) where the problem occurs. Thank you very much for any possible solutions!! Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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jsg
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 00:35:50
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I have discovered that when a tempo change is near a softsynth entrance, sometimes the first note after the tempo change does not sync up properly. Has anyone heard this, and if so, is there a setting that might eliminate this? I can move the note ahead of the beat by 50 ticks or so, and this resolves it, but then the MIDI file is not precise, only the audio recording is. If I leave the MIDI notes at their proper location, then the audio recording is a bit out of sync. Anybody else have this issue? I wonder if it's a new bug, I don't doubt it as nearly every Sonar release fixes some old bugs and adds new ones. Jerry
post edited by jsg - 2017/08/28 02:49:49
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gustabo
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 09:56:05
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What is your midi buffers setting set to?
Up it to at least 500ms if it's set to 250ms in Prefs > MIDI > Playback and Recording
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promidi
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 10:09:49
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Have you looked at the event list to make sure there is not a bunch of controller (or other types like NPR or RNPR ) events bunched up at the location where the issue occurs on any of the tracks.
Also, make sure there are no duplicate note events where the issue occurs.
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Kev999
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 10:12:03
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gustabo
What is your midi buffers setting set to?
Up it to at least 500ms if it's set to 250ms in Prefs > MIDI > Playback and Recording
I once had a similar problem, but in my case the solution was the opposite of this. i.e. reducing the midi buffer size cured it. Of course this may be unrelated to the OP's situation. My project (as far as I recall) was constant tempo and the offending softsynth was VB3.
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rhenn
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 13:21:48
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I've run into similar issues in large projects involving multiple instances of EWQL Play and Kontakt. I find "bounce to track" and freezing functions are not 100% reliable. What you hear is NOT always what you get. My most effective workaround has been to record in "real-time", while monitoring playback. This can be time-consuming and tedious with a long project, but it works. I use an RME UCX interface which offers a "loopback" function. I arm an audio track, setup the loopback channel as the input and hit record. It will then capture whatever I am hearing in my monitors. If you don't have an RME interface, you can accomplish the same thing with Sonar's new patchpoint/aux track functions. You can either do one master stereo mix, or as many sub-mix/stems as you wish. If this idea interests you, and you need help setting up the aux tracks, Craig Anderton's Big Book of Sonar Tips explains it well. Or, send me a PM and I'll help you figure it out. FWIW, in a prior life I was a composer of modern orchestral music. I've been with Cakewalk since DOS, and find that my orchestral mock-ups keep improving, but always at the price of steep learning curves, new problems at random, and inevitable workarounds. Good luck - hope this helps!
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jsg
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/28 17:10:43
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I've tried increasing MIDI buffers, the MOTU 1248 audio buffers, and Sonar's disc buffers, all to no avail. Also tried "configure as tempo-based effect" (Sonar's VST utility), but that didn't work either. I wonder if there's a setting in the audio configuration file that might resolve this? The problem is related to tempo changes and softsynths that sync to tempo, I am seeing this issue with Z3TA and Massive. I can workaround it by moving notes about 60 ticks early, but this makes the MIDI notation imprecise. Since Cakewalk has removed all their phone numbers, no help can be expected from them. Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply, Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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bvideo
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/29 06:51:21
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Sometimes a "real time" bounce, i.e. fast bounce turned off, uses different paths in the programming of softsynths. So it might better resemble the "correct" playback you are normally hearing.
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jsg
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/29 15:46:50
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Some softsynths that sync to tempo don't respond well to tempo changes, particularly the ones that have rhythmic oscillations and have crisp attacks. I resolved it by moving some tempo changes a measure before the synth comes in and this solution works. Here's the piece (1st section of a new symphonic work) for those interested in listening: http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Tenth%20Symphony%201st%20movement.mp3 Thanks for replying! Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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Jimbo 88
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/29 18:05:58
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Did you try freezing Massive before the bounce? ...or how 'bout bounce the Massive track starting after the tempo change. I know I have timing issues with some soft synths and tempo changes. As usual, your music sound great!
post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2017/08/29 19:01:24
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jsg
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/30 02:33:35
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Jimbo 88
Did you try freezing Massive before the bounce?
...or how 'bout bounce the Massive track starting after the tempo change. I know I have timing issues with some soft synths and tempo changes.
As usual, your music sound great!
I try to avoid bouncing when working with only MIDI instruments and software synths. I have a workaround now that requires a bit more planning when it comes to tempi, but that's the way it is. Glad you liked the piece. The version I posted is not the final one, the audio dynamics and EQ are not at a performance level yet.
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mettelus
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/30 04:26:12
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jsg
Some softsynths that sync to tempo don't respond well to tempo changes, particularly the ones that have rhythmic oscillations and have crisp attacks. I resolved it by moving some tempo changes a measure before the synth comes in and this solution works.
I do not use synths which have seen this, but have seen posts where tempo changes need to be inserted far enough ahead of the note on message to "take." It may be something in the algorithm of the tempo sync with that VSTi, but I was led to believe that it only requires enough samples (not sure the "minimum" though) for the sync rather than a whole measure.
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jsg
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Re: When Rendering MIDI Tracks and Instrument Tracks to Audio, One Soft Synth Has Timing E
2017/08/30 05:24:03
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mettelus
jsg
Some softsynths that sync to tempo don't respond well to tempo changes, particularly the ones that have rhythmic oscillations and have crisp attacks. I resolved it by moving some tempo changes a measure before the synth comes in and this solution works.
I do not use synths which have seen this, but have seen posts where tempo changes need to be inserted far enough ahead of the note on message to "take." It may be something in the algorithm of the tempo sync with that VSTi, but I was led to believe that it only requires enough samples (not sure the "minimum" though) for the sync rather than a whole measure.
You may be right, I am not exactly how long a lead time the VST synths need to stay with a tempo change, probably less than a measure. But one synth, the Z3Ta 2.2, needs more than that. It probably varies from synth to synth.
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