Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now

Author
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2819
  • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
  • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
  • Status: offline
2017/09/10 22:26:20 (permalink)
5 (1)

Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now

I had lots of "user error issues" lately where use of quick groups broke a very progressed mix and often things go missing that I did not delete on purpose.

I think now that a big part of the actual problem is a fundamentally changed "logic" when it cones to selecting tracks, clips etc.

There is almost always more selected than what I intended to. What took one click to select now takes 3 (because you always have to go an deselect stuff). Way more mistakes happen because of this.

Seriously considering rollback to a previous version ... which one would that be? 2017.06 or .05 or earlier? When did Cakewalk fiddle with this so badly? Probably with one of the latest ripple editing improvements...

GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
  +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
 
DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
#1

15 Replies Related Threads

    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
    Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2819
    • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
    • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/09/11 05:41:34 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    Just did another quick test and here's what makes working cumbersome:
    • As soon as you got automation and and take lanes, selecting a clip also selects the automation - which would be OK if I want to ripple edit / move stuff but much more often I just simply select clips to delete takes that are not good enough or no longer needed - in this case the automation gets also deleted BUT that applies to all other takes in that track and NOT just that single take that I deleted (!!!!)
    • It is not even consistent what is being selected (clearly a bug!) i.e. when using the smart tool to select a region containing one or several takes from 1 take lane, sometimes automation is selected alongside, sometimes not => again I don't want automation to be touched unless I ripple edit because very often I need to make subtle changes to timing by nudging clips => I don't want the automation to move in that case because that applies to the track and how it fits the song - it is not related to single clips at all (!!!!)
     
    I believe that this "new selection magic" has not been properly thought about when introducing ripple edit because
    • There is no reason to do this "select all tracks" unless you are in "Ripple Edit All" mode. You are asking for way more problems compared to what we used to have in terms of selecting clips, tracks, regions, on timeline, etc
    • You could stick to the old and proven selection methods and only in case of ripple edit active AND a drag and drop move action being initiated, the "rest" (i.e. automation, other takes from take lanes, ...) should be added to the selection to be moved along - but unless both conditions are satisfied, no point for this "extra magic" that's happening now

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #2
    jbraner
    Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1830
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:38:35
    • Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/09/11 08:47:49 (permalink)
    0
    As stated here http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-likes-to-select-all-a-lot-now-m3653735.aspx#3653735
    I've noticed that way too often, SONAR selects *all* tracks when I do something (like mark some measures in the time line). There is no need for this - and it just creates extra clicks to "unselect" everything again.

    John Braner
    https://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JohnBraner
    http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
     
    - Intel i7 3770K 3.5GHz
    - Windows 10 Pro - 64 bit
    - Cakewalk by BandLab x64
    - Reaper x64
    - 16GB RAM
    - Asus P8z77-V mobo - using the integrated Intel graphic card (HD4000)
    - MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
    I usually use ASIO set at 64 or 128 samples
    er - that's it I think...
    #3
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
    Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2819
    • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
    • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/09/14 05:51:48 (permalink)
    0
    I tried some more and here is what I consider real show stoppers for editing.
    • Select volume take lane of track 6 and track 8. Now pick your selection in the time line and your previous take lane selection is discarded (which strangely does not happen when you have full tracks and not just the take lanes selected => inconsistency / bug).
    • Doing it the opposite way i.e. selecting on the time line, then volume take lane of track 6 and track 8 works BUT (and this is a BIG BUT), it immediately discards your selection after the edit (nothing selected anymore) which means you cannot simply adjust your previous adjustment until you find the proper level and - just as bad - you cannot go to the timeline and make your selection for the next section. Practical example: try bringing down back vox tracks in each chorus. used to be super easy. select take lanes, make time range selection, pull down while listening, if gone too far adjust vertical drag, go to to timeline click next chorus ... not it is a click orgy deluxe (!!!)
    • What also occurred (several times yet hard to reproduce) is that some of the take lanes which got auto-selected by time range selection stayed active even though manually deselected (selection highlight indicator turned off) i.e. when adjusting volume take lanes, panning was also adjusted due to being active in the background but not visually indicated.

    IMHO a fairly broken state which needs an urgent and thorough fix!

    I'm sure that previous versions of Sonar did NOT work like that. I did a few tests rolling back and forth between 2017.06, 07 and 08 but unfortunately even 06 has the same issues so I cannot just rollback to 2 months. I would have to roll back further, which means losing and possibly compatibility / breaking currently running projects.

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #4
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
    Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2819
    • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
    • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/09/14 06:04:31 (permalink)
    0
    Cakewalk please have a look at http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-likes-to-select-all-a-lot-now-m3653735.aspx to understand in how many different ways this also affects other users!

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #5
    davidpa
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9
    • Joined: 2015/01/11 01:00:09
    • Location: Adelaide Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/09/17 09:30:30 (permalink)
    0
    I agree with the above. I find it most annoying to have all tracks selected by default when I select a time range. Extra time is required to deselect tracks not required. I hope future updates reverse this automatic selection behaviour.
     
    #6
    Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
    Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1117
    • Joined: 2006/07/10 15:44:42
    • Location: Boston, MA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/03 15:33:47 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    All tracks are ONLY selected when NOTHING is selected.  If there is anything selected then the ruler just makes time adjustments to the existing selection.
     
    Please note this wasn't just done for ripple editing.
    We had many complaints over the years from people trying to export regions of their project for stems, etc. and not getting all tracks selected/incomplete exports.
     
    If you don't want automation selected when selecting clips, then turn off the Select Track Envelopes with clips option in the Options menu of the Track View.
     
    If there are bugs/inconsistencies, we'll look into them.  Thanks.
     
     

    Keith
    #7
    jbraner
    Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1830
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:38:35
    • Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/03 16:27:35 (permalink)
    0
    Thanks Keith - I still prefer if it remained selecting nothing and let -me- choose what to select 😉

    John Braner
    https://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JohnBraner
    http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
     
    - Intel i7 3770K 3.5GHz
    - Windows 10 Pro - 64 bit
    - Cakewalk by BandLab x64
    - Reaper x64
    - 16GB RAM
    - Asus P8z77-V mobo - using the integrated Intel graphic card (HD4000)
    - MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
    I usually use ASIO set at 64 or 128 samples
    er - that's it I think...
    #8
    Jon Sasor [Cakewalk]
    Cakewalk Staff
    • Total Posts : 284
    • Joined: 2014/04/07 10:28:55
    • Location: Boston, MA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/03 21:45:42 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    jbraner
    Thanks Keith - I still prefer if it remained selecting nothing and let -me- choose what to select 😉



    It essentially works that way now, you're just starting from a point of all tracks being selected vs none. When all tracks are selected, when you click on a track number, it removes all other tracks from the selection unless you're holding a key modifier.
     
    So functionally, before the change, if you had no tracks selected, highlighted the ruler, then clicked track 5, you'd end up with only track 5 selected for the duration on the ruler.
     
    Presently, if you have no tracks selected, highlight the ruler, then click track 5, you will also end up with just track 5 selected for the duration of the ruler.
     
    Alternately if you selected the track(s) first, then did the ruler, you'll end up with the same result.

    Jonathan Sasor
    Quality Assurance Engineer 
    BandLab
    #9
    Maxover
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6
    • Joined: 2017/01/23 22:59:31
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 06:00:05 (permalink)
    0
    I have a project now where I have a MIDI track that I can't select anything at all in it unless I expand out the take lanes and do them one at a time (the comp lane is "grayed" out).  Also, Cntrl-C and Cntrl-V for copy paste doesn't work on this track, but the context menu does.  Not sure if this is a related issue to what everyone else on this thread is seeing.
    #10
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
    Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2819
    • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
    • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 06:30:29 (permalink)
    0
    Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
     
    If there are bugs/inconsistencies, we'll look into them.  Thanks.
     



    see my post #4: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3656104
     
    this is were it gets very inconvenient (!!) ...
    • make sure you try several times because at the 1st edit the selection is retained, with later ones it gets discarded immediately after the edit (bug!)
    • e.g. add volume and pan automation lanes to track #6 and #8 now try to adjust just the panning of both tracks at the same time by selecting 1st the automation lanes, then the time range (the lane selection is only retained if you click between markers to select everything between markers, but not if you drag across the time line to select!)
    somehow it looks like it works better if you only select the entire section between markers (which was recently introduced, 2017.06?) but that rarely happens in my case as markers are usually at song sections (1st downbeat) and not e.g. in the musical "gap" before it leads up to the section where you would place the automation edit ...
     
    however, even with selecting entire sections between markers I just again ran into the case that volume got also adjusted when working pan although volume not being not highlighted as selected (as mentioned above)

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #11
    jbraner
    Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1830
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:38:35
    • Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 08:30:49 (permalink)
    0
    Jon Sasor [Cakewalk]
    jbraner
    Thanks Keith - I still prefer if it remained selecting nothing and let -me- choose what to select 😉



    It essentially works that way now, you're just starting from a point of all tracks being selected vs none. When all tracks are selected, when you click on a track number, it removes all other tracks from the selection unless you're holding a key modifier.
     
    So functionally, before the change, if you had no tracks selected, highlighted the ruler, then clicked track 5, you'd end up with only track 5 selected for the duration on the ruler.
     
    Presently, if you have no tracks selected, highlight the ruler, then click track 5, you will also end up with just track 5 selected for the duration of the ruler.
     
    Alternately if you selected the track(s) first, then did the ruler, you'll end up with the same result.




    This is true Jon, but when you do things like select the ruler to create a loop - you don't want to select everything - you just want to create a loop. I just find myself continually hitting my hotkey (which I made myself) to "unselect" everything.
     
    Maybe I'm wrong - but I don't think most people choose "everything" that often (for any operation) and i don't understand why that became the default. I know know we'll just have to get over it, and get used to it - but it is worth raising the point.

    John Braner
    https://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JohnBraner
    http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
     
    - Intel i7 3770K 3.5GHz
    - Windows 10 Pro - 64 bit
    - Cakewalk by BandLab x64
    - Reaper x64
    - 16GB RAM
    - Asus P8z77-V mobo - using the integrated Intel graphic card (HD4000)
    - MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
    I usually use ASIO set at 64 or 128 samples
    er - that's it I think...
    #12
    Jon Sasor [Cakewalk]
    Cakewalk Staff
    • Total Posts : 284
    • Joined: 2014/04/07 10:28:55
    • Location: Boston, MA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 18:59:30 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    jbraner
     
    This is true Jon, but when you do things like select the ruler to create a loop - you don't want to select everything - you just want to create a loop. I just find myself continually hitting my hotkey (which I made myself) to "unselect" everything.
     
    Maybe I'm wrong - but I don't think most people choose "everything" that often (for any operation) and i don't understand why that became the default. I know know we'll just have to get over it, and get used to it - but it is worth raising the point.




    What kind of loop are you referring to here? If you're looping the project, it doesn't really matter what tracks are selected in the project to set the loop or punch points. 
     
    The change was made because for most people, having no tracks selected is more of an anomaly than having everything selected. It alleviates confusion when trying to export your entire project from the time ruler without having to go back through and select your tracks. 
     
    Having to deselect tracks currently is the same process now as before. If no tracks were selected doing the time ruler range, you're still clicking through adding the tracks you want. As per my previous post, you don't necessarily need to deselect tracks explicitly when everything is selected either. For example, if you're trying to select tracks 3-6, you can highlight the ruler (all tracks select), then click and drag from 3-6. No other deselection of other tracks is required.
     
    If there's a specific workflow case where this is different, please elaborate on that. Otherwise all tracks are temporarily being selected, and behavior should be the same. 
     

    Jonathan Sasor
    Quality Assurance Engineer 
    BandLab
    #13
    Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
    Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1117
    • Joined: 2006/07/10 15:44:42
    • Location: Boston, MA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 20:13:41 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    Also, turning off numlock and hitting the 5 key on the numpad will clear selection.  You don't necessarily have to bind that to something else.
     

    Keith
    #14
    jbraner
    Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1830
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:38:35
    • Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/04 21:18:47 (permalink)
    0
    What kind of loop are you referring to here? If you're looping the project, it doesn't really matter what tracks are selected in the project to set the loop or punch points.

    Oh well, there's no need to keep going on - it's not going to change
     
    I just don't like having "everything" selected all the time. Anything you click or do or adjust, may accidentally affect "everything". I loop sections of a song all the time - either to listen for something, or add a part, or pracitise before adding a part - loads of things.
     
    I just have to be careful not to hit the delete key now...
     
    I know - ctrl Z is my friend - I would just prefer to select my tracks when I want to do something.
     
    I'll get used to it...

    John Braner
    https://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JohnBraner
    http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
     
    - Intel i7 3770K 3.5GHz
    - Windows 10 Pro - 64 bit
    - Cakewalk by BandLab x64
    - Reaper x64
    - 16GB RAM
    - Asus P8z77-V mobo - using the integrated Intel graphic card (HD4000)
    - MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
    I usually use ASIO set at 64 or 128 samples
    er - that's it I think...
    #15
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
    Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2819
    • Joined: 2011/02/03 04:31:35
    • Location: Sound-Rehab, Austria
    • Status: offline
    Re: Track/clip selection a lot more cumbersome now 2017/10/05 05:48:46 (permalink)
    0
    to me the solution (rather than an endless discuss) would be:
     
    (A) make it optional whether to select all or don't change selection when fiddling with the time ruler - there must a point in your code where you explicitly call the "select all" routine, just give the option to not execute that here with some setting in the preferences
     
    (B) test and iron out the inconsistencies listed above ...

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #16
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1