Somanyquestions
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/03 09:01:45
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Cactus Music
Somanyquestions
Also a slightly related question. IF i ever get a mixer connected to my computer, what happens with the Sonar mixer? Let's say on my analog mixer i push the fader up, what happens to Sonar's fader on that same channel? Does it move along? If not what do i do with Sonar's mixer? Just ignore it?
Nothing will happen if it's an analog mixer. The USB connection from analog mixers only sends audio back and forth.
Some digital mixers can control Sonar but you need to set that up and it's obviously not easy when you read all the posts about this topic. Example my Yamaha 01V will control SOnar via it's midi port but I have to configure a long list of menu options first.
A control surface is not a mixer as it has no audio only the controls.
Right. So i simply ignore the mixer in Sonar when using an external mixer?
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Cactus Music
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/03 14:36:47
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Yes and no.
If your mixing inside Sonar you use the Console View or track view to set your mix.
If you purchase an Analog mixer with multi channel USB capability you have the option of mixing with that outside of Sonar. You will be using the mixers faders and effects and re-capturing the analog output.
This is called out side the box summing and personally I see no benefit at all in working this way unless the mixer is high end with lots of hardware rack gear on hand.
Your running your tracks through an extra stage of A/D D/A. You will be limited to whatever the mixers channel count and effect are as apposed to Sonar has unlimited mixing and effects capabilities.
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Somanyquestions
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/03 17:01:26
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Cactus Music
Yes and no.
If your mixing inside Sonar you use the Console View or track view to set your mix.
If you purchase an Analog mixer with multi channel USB capability you have the option of mixing with that outside of Sonar. You will be using the mixers faders and effects and re-capturing the analog output.
This is called out side the box summing and personally I see no benefit at all in working this way unless the mixer is high end with lots of hardware rack gear on hand.
Your running your tracks through an extra stage of A/D D/A. You will be limited to whatever the mixers channel count and effect are as apposed to Sonar has unlimited mixing and effects capabilities.
So what you are basically saying is skip the anolog mixer part? Interesting. For some reason having a mixer i can see and feel just gives me a better studio and recording vibe. But do i really need one? Maybe i actually don't. If i have a rack with anolog hardware like compressors and such, can i still use them in Sonar without an external mixer though?
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AT
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/03 18:23:33
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A mixer is useful on the front end, getting sound into SONAR. In that case, you use the analog mixer's controls for gain, headphone mixes, etc. Either for a multi channel mixer or analog mixer going straight into your interface .
What Cactus is referring to is about mixing in-the-box. Cakewalk does excellent clean mixing, along with full racks of digital effects to put on those virtual tracks. And automation. Good automation for analog mixers is a hardware retrofit at $5000 per 8 channels. In SONAR, you can mix 80 channels with automation on each vol, plus pan, plus whatever else you want. That is a strength of any DAW. Of course, if you want to mix through the analog mixer you can do that, too, with as many channels as you have digital to analog converters.
The sweet spot for many hardware people is a summing mixer, which is basically a line mixer. You shunt out 8-24 channels (however many D to A converters you have) into a simple mixer, sending tracks to your analog hardware units. Such as your DAW bass out DA 1 into channel one of your mixer. That signal then shunts off to your 1176 Limiting Amp and back into the mixer (either through a line insert or just another unused input). You can either record the return signal in your DAW and move on to the next instrument, or mix live with it still attached to your DAW. In that case you find the next signal, say a vocal, and use an LA2a on. Your DAW still supplies automation to the tracks (as well as any digital effects including comps and limiters) while your lead tracks get the hardware polish.
It is all a balancing act, tho. A $200 mixer that you use for headphone outs during tracking isn't going to add anything special to your sound - in fact, it is as likely to muck up things if your stereo interface costs as much. Mixing back through it for eq etc. is a waste - your digital EQ is much better (esp. if you are using SONAR with the ProChannel). A quality transformer-based preamp, or comp for that matter, is going to cost $400 a channel to start out at and only go up. It gets expensive quickly. Your best bet is to build up your hardware - a nice stereo comp is a great buy, since you can run a signal in through it to record, then run your master out through it when mixing. A two for one deal. Same for EQs. And a high quality pre can really help with the definition of various instruments in a mix. The best thing that ever happened to me for acoustic recording is fall into a deal on a RND Portico II channel strip. At that level, if your signal sucks, you know it ain't Rupert Neve and must be operator error.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/03 19:39:28
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Somanyquestions
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/05 11:59:05
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Cactus Music
You can even ask the Sweetwater people what your looking for.
I see a lot of people raving about Sweetwater. Well, as per your advice i contacted them 3 days ago. I have yet to get a reply but they did manage to put me on their mailing list, which at this point is nothing but spam. I never had this happen before. Crazy. Not blaming you of course, just saying this is enough for me to stay away from them in the future.
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Somanyquestions
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/05 11:59:52
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AT
A mixer is useful on the front end, getting sound into SONAR. In that case, you use the analog mixer's controls for gain, headphone mixes, etc. Either for a multi channel mixer or analog mixer going straight into your interface .
What Cactus is referring to is about mixing in-the-box. Cakewalk does excellent clean mixing, along with full racks of digital effects to put on those virtual tracks. And automation. Good automation for analog mixers is a hardware retrofit at $5000 per 8 channels. In SONAR, you can mix 80 channels with automation on each vol, plus pan, plus whatever else you want. That is a strength of any DAW. Of course, if you want to mix through the analog mixer you can do that, too, with as many channels as you have digital to analog converters.
The sweet spot for many hardware people is a summing mixer, which is basically a line mixer. You shunt out 8-24 channels (however many D to A converters you have) into a simple mixer, sending tracks to your analog hardware units. Such as your DAW bass out DA 1 into channel one of your mixer. That signal then shunts off to your 1176 Limiting Amp and back into the mixer (either through a line insert or just another unused input). You can either record the return signal in your DAW and move on to the next instrument, or mix live with it still attached to your DAW. In that case you find the next signal, say a vocal, and use an LA2a on. Your DAW still supplies automation to the tracks (as well as any digital effects including comps and limiters) while your lead tracks get the hardware polish.
It is all a balancing act, tho. A $200 mixer that you use for headphone outs during tracking isn't going to add anything special to your sound - in fact, it is as likely to muck up things if your stereo interface costs as much. Mixing back through it for eq etc. is a waste - your digital EQ is much better (esp. if you are using SONAR with the ProChannel). A quality transformer-based preamp, or comp for that matter, is going to cost $400 a channel to start out at and only go up. It gets expensive quickly. Your best bet is to build up your hardware - a nice stereo comp is a great buy, since you can run a signal in through it to record, then run your master out through it when mixing. A two for one deal. Same for EQs. And a high quality pre can really help with the definition of various instruments in a mix. The best thing that ever happened to me for acoustic recording is fall into a deal on a RND Portico II channel strip. At that level, if your signal sucks, you know it ain't Rupert Neve and must be operator error.
Thanks for the reply. All these posts really help me out.
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AT
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/05 14:24:31
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If you buy from sweetwater you'll be getting phone calls from your "manager" of whatever they call it. They do want to sell you things. I think I just got their pro catalogue last week. It is how business is done. Once you buy more software you'll be getting all that company's spam too.
Sweetwater aren't usually the cheapest, but very safe. That being said, I've never had a problem w/ any retailer, esp. the online/phone companies. That doesn't include Bob's Chop shop and music retailer, but any of the major ones should be fine. And like in all areas, sales people are sales people. Some will help, some will push whatever they make the most on and many are just stupid and have no idea of what they are selling. Use them as a source of information, but not the primary. It is up to you to sift the chaff from the wheat.
If you are beginning to record, proceed slowly. Early on, one has plenty of ideas of what you want to do, but no practical experience about it. The OP is not the first person to think that an analog mixer that outputting digital would be a perfect solution and cost-effective. Except there are usually compromises, esp. in the low end market. Sometimes crippling. And money that should be spent on the sound is shunted off into convenience or features you won't ever use. Keep it as simple as you can until you figure out what you want to do. Doing "band" recordings live with drums has totally different requirements (pay a real studio) and is a totally different beastie than doing drums in the box and overdubbing single acoustic instruments.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use
2017/10/05 16:33:12
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Like I said in another one of your threads, At this point I would highly recommend a read through of the Yamaha Handbook. It is required reading for anyone wishing to understand audio engineering. https://bgaudioclub.org/uploads/docs/Yamaha_Sound_Reinforcement_Handbook_2nd_Edition_Gary_Davis_Ralph_Jones.pdf Sweetwater: I've actually never bought anything from them. US prices and shipping puts US retailers out of reach for us Canadians. Things are cheaper when we buy them here with our own dollar. I use the site to check out info and read reviews and then go buy from a Canadian music store. Sweetwater often has more details than some of the manufactures web sites and you can quickly see what's new and compare features. And reviews, if you know how to interpet them are a huge resource. And what AT said in his last paragraph above is very wise information.. Do not run out and fully outfit a studio until you have 100% understanding of what your doing and how you will go about it. There are so many ways to accomplish the same thing these days. The worst case is to purchase a lot of complicated gear and you have no clue how to make it all work. Start simple with a multi channel audio interface, thats' all you need to record a band. A analog mixer might be handy, as AT said, just for headphone and PA mixes. It all get complicated from there on up until your using something like a Behringer X32, Yamaha LS-9 , Midas M32 or a Digico S21 for the heart of your set up.
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