PA speakers or floor monitors or both?

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Somanyquestions
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2017/10/02 08:54:03 (permalink)

PA speakers or floor monitors or both?

What would you prefer in a practice and recording studio and why?
 
 
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/02 18:18:47 (permalink)
    I have 4 powered PA speakers, A set of Peavy PR 8" and a set of Alto TS112 12". I proof my performance mixes through them and practice for gigs with evertything set up the way it will be at the gig. 
    Both these models like most powered speakers can be used as either floor or pole mounted. So to me there's no big differance unless your talking high end gear. 
    Is this for a "live "room?  Are you going to use them for bands so they can practice without headphones? Poles are good for this as you can quickly rotate them and they are at ear level too.  One room we rented had a cluster of 4 flown in the middle of the room so the band could be in a circle. 
     
    PA speakers can be an awsome way to listen to your mixes real loud. For the money (if I had it)  I would have bought the Yamaha DXR 12". They are super acurate and do not colour the sound. My Alto's were half the price and sound just great but they are heavy in the bass and lack midrange.
    And size- You don't need 15" speakers for most applications. Only a DJ set up that doesn't have subs then 15" is a good solutions. Most sound people vote for 12" boxes these day's but for just vocals you can use 10" and even 8". 

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    tlw
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/02 18:48:14 (permalink)
    PA speakers generally need wider horizontal sound dispersion than vertical and floor monitors generally have greater vertical sound dispersion than horizontal. Which makes sense if you consider the different way they are used. The restricted horizontal spread of monitors can be very useful in avoiding feedback and sound spill as it restricts the sound level reaching mics that are outside the loudest part of the speaker's dispersion pattern. It makes doing an individual mix for different people a bit easier as well because there's less direct sound-spill going on from the monitoring system, and absorbent or plexiglass isolation panels can be used to divide the acoustic space up more easily if you use floor-wedges.
     
    On the plus side, the PA-style approach means the greater sound spread might mean needing to use fewer speakers, but that might not work so well for recording purposes if you have sound spill problems.
     
    As Cactus Music says, if you get modern trapezoid-shaped PA cabs they can be used vertically on a pole or other platform for PA or laid with a long side on the floor and used as monitors. Which makes them a convenient solution for both approaches, just shift them around as required by whoever's using the studio or where you need to put mics and other stuff when recording.
     
    After that it's a matter of deciding how much you are going to spend and finding something in that price range.
     
    For what it's worth, which isn't much, my personal rehearsal monitor preference would be for a mix of floor monitors and PA-style side-fills.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/02 19:57:11 (permalink)
    I like PA speakers on stands in rehearsals and even in recording environments.  In rehearsals with the speakers up high they are usually more audible.  Hence they are more efficient.  One at each end of a band set up can be very effective.  Powered 12's with a clear decent sound. 
     
    Recording wise I have recorded normally in quiet studio situations but also done a fair bit of multi track recording with a PA in the room.  I like this and it can work well.  People can hear themselves in the PA.  Keyboards, acoustic guitars with pickups, even some electrics with a pre amp or guitar processor involved.  No subs here. The idea is to keep deep sub low end out of the PA spill sound. With the PA present a lot of the backline amp clutter can go.  The setup can be simpler.
     
    For vocals in a recording situation a wedge on the floor for them works well because it gives them a decent foldback level but offers very little spill vocal into to the other more live mics in the room .  Most of the sound is being directed at them.  Yamaha powered speakers can alter their EQ to suit certain situations.  In wedge mode you can reduce the low end and push the mids/highs a bit if you want for a clear foldback sound with less low end escaping.  Up high on the stands, the EQ can be set for flat sound or slightly elevated/shelf ends of spectrum. 
     
    The PA spill can be very easily controlled especially with mic choices/positioning in the locations which are more likely to pick up spill.  Such as drum O'Heads.  Rode NT5's for some reason just pickup the cymbals and overhead sounds and almost totally reject the PA.  Many other mics are close to their source and won't hear the PA either.  For horns and things I put them behind two baffles carefully placed in the room.  Not quite touching so the players in there can see out and hear the band.  The PA spill in the slightly enclosed area is almost also non existent.  The baffles also stop a lot the band from getting in there too.  The sound coming from that area is a very clear representation of that group with very little PA spill.  Horns could be individually mic'd as well. 
     
    The secret is not to be loud in the playing/recording situation and keep levels lower.  Something that many find hard to do.  When that great live playing level happens the PA can be heard much better and sooner.   It does not have to be that loud for it to be loud and clear.  It also working less hard and should not sound strained at any time. Everyone hears themselves and others well so the playing is at its best.  Great multitrack recordings can result with very little PA spill everywhere on the tracks.  Great mixes will happen then because the playing is so nice.  The mix editing and production can also really minimise the PA spill further. 
     
    During recording I use an interface with lots of inputs and extra outputs.  (24 In 8 Out is all you need) I patch all the signal sources to the inputs on multiple interfaces and get their signals inside the DAW early.  I do all the PA routing and monitoring in the DAW software.  It is by far the best place to do it.  I create a PA buss and create sends on the tracks for anything that needs to go in the PA. When you insert a send in Studio One it is set to -6db.  Sends are good because you have instant visual feedback as to which channels are going out to the PA.  With care that auto send install level  of -6 can be perfect in the PA.  Set with a very low buffer and a decent interface there is no perceptible delay anywhere.  You don't use any plugins or processing anywhere.  It eliminates any latency errors.  This way only the needed instruments are sent out to the PA.  They can be panned too.  Meaning you can move a PA sound from one side through the centre to the other.  Move something away from say the drum O'Heads.  Playback through the PA is also instantly available.  Create another mix buss and do a rough mix there live during the recording session.  
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/10/02 20:21:38

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/02 21:57:46 (permalink)
    Good post Jeff. Certainly been the way I found works with bands that are not exactly studio musicains. Some people just cannot work using headphones at all. 
    And your right about leakage. If you do as you say it's not a terrible thing unless there was some very bad notes played by someone that leaks through into the drum mikes. 
    Just the other day I was playing an old recording I did which was done live in the studio and realized I had never redone the vocal track. I almost always re do vocals and my guitars. On soloing the track I could hear the drums. The song was long gone down the road and mastered. Vocals sounded fine to me. 

    Johnny V  
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/03 08:55:31 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    I have 4 powered PA speakers, A set of Peavy PR 8" and a set of Alto TS112 12". I proof my performance mixes through them and practice for gigs with evertything set up the way it will be at the gig. 
    Both these models like most powered speakers can be used as either floor or pole mounted. So to me there's no big differance unless your talking high end gear. 
    Is this for a "live "room?  Are you going to use them for bands so they can practice without headphones? Poles are good for this as you can quickly rotate them and they are at ear level too.  One room we rented had a cluster of 4 flown in the middle of the room so the band could be in a circle. 
     
    PA speakers can be an awsome way to listen to your mixes real loud. For the money (if I had it)  I would have bought the Yamaha DXR 12". They are super acurate and do not colour the sound. My Alto's were half the price and sound just great but they are heavy in the bass and lack midrange.
    And size- You don't need 15" speakers for most applications. Only a DJ set up that doesn't have subs then 15" is a good solutions. Most sound people vote for 12" boxes these day's but for just vocals you can use 10" and even 8". 




    Thanks for your reply.
     
    My room will be for live/practice and studio recording.
    I think i simply will get both. A 4, 5 monitors on the floor and 2 at head level. Does that sound good?
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/03 08:57:01 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    I like PA speakers on stands in rehearsals and even in recording environments.  In rehearsals with the speakers up high they are usually more audible.  Hence they are more efficient.  One at each end of a band set up can be very effective.  Powered 12's with a clear decent sound. 
     
    Recording wise I have recorded normally in quiet studio situations but also done a fair bit of multi track recording with a PA in the room.  I like this and it can work well.  People can hear themselves in the PA.  Keyboards, acoustic guitars with pickups, even some electrics with a pre amp or guitar processor involved.  No subs here. The idea is to keep deep sub low end out of the PA spill sound. With the PA present a lot of the backline amp clutter can go.  The setup can be simpler.
     
    For vocals in a recording situation a wedge on the floor for them works well because it gives them a decent foldback level but offers very little spill vocal into to the other more live mics in the room .  Most of the sound is being directed at them.  Yamaha powered speakers can alter their EQ to suit certain situations.  In wedge mode you can reduce the low end and push the mids/highs a bit if you want for a clear foldback sound with less low end escaping.  Up high on the stands, the EQ can be set for flat sound or slightly elevated/shelf ends of spectrum. 
     
    The PA spill can be very easily controlled especially with mic choices/positioning in the locations which are more likely to pick up spill.  Such as drum O'Heads.  Rode NT5's for some reason just pickup the cymbals and overhead sounds and almost totally reject the PA.  Many other mics are close to their source and won't hear the PA either.  For horns and things I put them behind two baffles carefully placed in the room.  Not quite touching so the players in there can see out and hear the band.  The PA spill in the slightly enclosed area is almost also non existent.  The baffles also stop a lot the band from getting in there too.  The sound coming from that area is a very clear representation of that group with very little PA spill.  Horns could be individually mic'd as well. 
     
    The secret is not to be loud in the playing/recording situation and keep levels lower.  Something that many find hard to do.  When that great live playing level happens the PA can be heard much better and sooner.   It does not have to be that loud for it to be loud and clear.  It also working less hard and should not sound strained at any time. Everyone hears themselves and others well so the playing is at its best.  Great multitrack recordings can result with very little PA spill everywhere on the tracks.  Great mixes will happen then because the playing is so nice.  The mix editing and production can also really minimise the PA spill further. 
     
    During recording I use an interface with lots of inputs and extra outputs.  (24 In 8 Out is all you need) I patch all the signal sources to the inputs on multiple interfaces and get their signals inside the DAW early.  I do all the PA routing and monitoring in the DAW software.  It is by far the best place to do it.  I create a PA buss and create sends on the tracks for anything that needs to go in the PA. When you insert a send in Studio One it is set to -6db.  Sends are good because you have instant visual feedback as to which channels are going out to the PA.  With care that auto send install level  of -6 can be perfect in the PA.  Set with a very low buffer and a decent interface there is no perceptible delay anywhere.  You don't use any plugins or processing anywhere.  It eliminates any latency errors.  This way only the needed instruments are sent out to the PA.  They can be panned too.  Meaning you can move a PA sound from one side through the centre to the other.  Move something away from say the drum O'Heads.  Playback through the PA is also instantly available.  Create another mix buss and do a rough mix there live during the recording session.  





    Wow, very informative reply. This will help me a lot. Thanks so much!
     
    During recording I use an interface with lots of inputs and extra outputs.  (24 In 8 Out is all you need) I patch all the signal sources to the inputs on multiple interfaces and get their signals inside the DAW early.  I do all the PA routing and monitoring in the DAW software.  It is by far the best place to do it.  I create a PA buss and create sends on the tracks for anything that needs to go in the PA. When you insert a send in Studio One it is set to -6db.  Sends are good because you have instant visual feedback as to which channels are going out to the PA.  With care that auto send install level  of -6 can be perfect in the PA.  Set with a very low buffer and a decent interface there is no perceptible delay anywhere.  You don't use any plugins or processing anywhere.  It eliminates any latency errors.  This way only the needed instruments are sent out to the PA.  They can be panned too.  Meaning you can move a PA sound from one side through the centre to the other.  Move something away from say the drum O'Heads.  Playback through the PA is also instantly available.  Create another mix buss and do a rough mix there live during the recording session. 
     
    Jeff Evans
    You don't use an external mixer? Why not?
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/03 20:13:18 (permalink)
    You seemed to have mis quoted me there.  
     
    About external mixers I think for a rehearsal situation a hardware mixer is a pretty handy way to go.  In the multitrack recording situation with PA though all the sources can come to the very interface inputs first. Then use the software to direct to other outputs and places. 
     
    In the recording/live PA situation I also have another smaller hardware mixer actually feeding the PA. Some DI sounds come direct to there and then obviously don't need the software link to the PA. Any keyboards e.g. piano sounds are always live to the PA and can be heard.  This PA mixer also controls the level leaving the interface which carries the PA buss stereo signal.  If the system was to go into feedback for any reason you need a way of being able to turn down the signal feeding the powered speakers.  Fast.  This small PA mixer does that job well.  It allows a zero latency access direct to the PA. Handy.
     
    DI's can also be used so the instruments also feed backline monitoring environments such as bass and guitar amps etc.. You have to watch how loud those things are in recording. There is a balance there of hearing them live well enough but creating very little spill on other open recording mics.
     
    I found two wedges and two speakers up on stands works well. The more wedges you have the louder the spill will be from the combined number of them. Better to encourage vocalists to get close to those 58's to ensure a strong healthy signal with low spill on the vocal tracks. Monitors can then be set so the vocalists are just hearing themselves nice and they are not overly loud while doing it. 

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: PA speakers or floor monitors or both? 2017/10/05 11:56:34 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    You seemed to have mis quoted me there.  
     
    About external mixers I think for a rehearsal situation a hardware mixer is a pretty handy way to go.  In the multitrack recording situation with PA though all the sources can come to the very interface inputs first. Then use the software to direct to other outputs and places. 
     
    In the recording/live PA situation I also have another smaller hardware mixer actually feeding the PA. Some DI sounds come direct to there and then obviously don't need the software link to the PA. Any keyboards e.g. piano sounds are always live to the PA and can be heard.  This PA mixer also controls the level leaving the interface which carries the PA buss stereo signal.  If the system was to go into feedback for any reason you need a way of being able to turn down the signal feeding the powered speakers.  Fast.  This small PA mixer does that job well.  It allows a zero latency access direct to the PA. Handy.
     
    DI's can also be used so the instruments also feed backline monitoring environments such as bass and guitar amps etc.. You have to watch how loud those things are in recording. There is a balance there of hearing them live well enough but creating very little spill on other open recording mics.
     
    I found two wedges and two speakers up on stands works well. The more wedges you have the louder the spill will be from the combined number of them. Better to encourage vocalists to get close to those 58's to ensure a strong healthy signal with low spill on the vocal tracks. Monitors can then be set so the vocalists are just hearing themselves nice and they are not overly loud while doing it. 




    Thanks for the info. Appreciated.
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