Helpful ReplyShould it take this long to close down projects?

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WallyG
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2017/11/16 01:48:33 (permalink)

Should it take this long to close down projects?

When I close down a project, it seems that in the past few months, it takes forever (ok one to three minutes) to clear out the project. I have a pretty fast computer (see Signature), and yes my projects have more tracks (20 to 30) than in the past but I'm just trying to find out if this is normal.
 
I did an experiment where I just loaded a simple project one MIDI track, saved the project, closed it and it closed almost instantly. I then added an audio track with no plug-ins and again it closed as soon as I clicked the X. I then cleared all the tracks and loaded one of my typical tracks with 5 plug-ins (Tape, Fab Filter EQ, iZotope 8 Dymamics, iZotope 8 Vintage Limiter, Insight). When I closed the project it took 6 seconds to clear the project. I then added another identical track and it now took 12 seconds to clear. Every additional track added an additional 6 seconds.
 
Does this seem normal?
 
Walt
 

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#1
gswitz
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 01:55:25 (permalink)
Midi is the thing that usually takes time to save.
 
Normal depends on your drive type. Lots of midi definitely slows down project save times.
 
Without midi, projects usually save very very fast.

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MarioD
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 02:14:36 (permalink)
You say that you have a track with 5 plug-ins then you duplicated the track many times.  IF you are adding all 5 plug-ins to each track then yes it will take some time to shut down.  I would put those plug-ins either on a buss or on 5 different buses.  This will give you only 5 plug-ins total and not 5 per track.

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#3
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 16:36:12 (permalink)
gswitz
Midi is the thing that usually takes time to save.
 
Normal depends on your drive type. Lots of midi definitely slows down project save times.
 
Without midi, projects usually save very very fast.


Thanks, but saving a project is not the problem. It takes between 1 to 2 seconds to save a project. I was discussing closing down a project to work on another one. A larger project (that's already saved) will take up to 3 minutes to close. If this is normal then fine.
 
I do have some projects with some MIDI with a lot of CC lanes and yes they slow things down, but I understand that.
 
Walt
 
 

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#4
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 16:42:57 (permalink)
MarioD
You say that you have a track with 5 plug-ins then you duplicated the track many times.  IF you are adding all 5 plug-ins to each track then yes it will take some time to shut down.  I would put those plug-ins either on a buss or on 5 different buses.  This will give you only 5 plug-ins total and not 5 per track.




Sorry Mario, but I didn't make that clear. I duplicated that track without any audio just as a test. I normally use templates that have my desired plug-ins.
 
Most of my tracks have different instruments i.e. trpt, clar, sax, guitar, accordion, vocals, so I need different parameters for the plug-ins. If I do have duplicate tracks (to thicken the sound) of a particular instrument or vocal, I do bring them to a stereo buss as you suggested.
 
It just doesn't make sense to me that it takes 1 to 2 seconds to initially save a file, but 3 minutes to close it down.
 
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#5
jbraner
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 21:40:56 (permalink)
My projects take ages to close.
I just go in to task manager and kill the process - if I'm in a hurry to open up another one.
I don't know what it's doing, when a file closes.

My projects also take a good few minutes to open...

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er - that's it I think...
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chuckebaby
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 21:41:45 (permalink)
I would try to narrow it down to a plug in first because its one of the easiest tests to do.
Are you running Kontakt or any other Synth that loads samples ?
My projects close fast, then I have to wait between 5-8 seconds before I see the start screen in order to load another project.

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#7
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 22:17:56 (permalink)
chuckebaby
I would try to narrow it down to a plug in first because its one of the easiest tests to do.
Are you running Kontakt or any other Synth that loads samples ?
My projects close fast, then I have to wait between 5-8 seconds before I see the start screen in order to load another project.


I'm going to try narrowing down and get back to you. I'm not running Kontakt for the experiments I tried, but do use it in many projects.
 
Walt

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#8
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 23:10:24 (permalink)
chuckebaby
.....My projects close fast, then I have to wait between 5-8 seconds before I see the start screen in order to load another project.

Do you use several plug-ins in you tracks?
 
Here's what I got for numbers:
Blank project, add one audio track from my templates with 5 plug-ins as in my original test. Same result, 6 seconds to close. Note that my timer starts when I click the X icon and ends when the Start Screen is done loading.
Eliminate Insight - 6s
Eliminate Ozone 8 Vintage Limiter - 6s
Eliminate Ozone 8 Dynamics - 4s (and it wasn't even enabled, whatever that has to do with it)
Eliminate Fab Filter Pro EQ - 4s
Eliminate Ozone 8 Vintage Tape - 4s
Eliminate track - 3s
Therefore the Start screen takes 3 seconds to load.
 
I then loaded 10 Audio tracks with no plugins - 3s to close
Cleared all tracks and loaded 10 tracks with the above plug-ins - 62s to close.
 
The reason I brought this all up is that everyone was saying how the latest updates have really improved operational speeds, open projects, etc. including your statement that your projects close fast. I'm seeing 3 minutes to close a big project with a fairly fast computer. If that the way it is, que sera sera.
 
Since some in this tread have stated that it takes forever to close a project, I'm going to assume it's just the amount of plug-ins, song content, MIDI including CCs that determine closing times and that I don't have anything wrong with the software or my computer. Thanks to all those that responded.
 
Walt
 
 

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rogeriodec
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/16 23:34:05 (permalink)
In my orchestra template, where I use many instances of Kontakt, in addition to multiple instances of Virtual Sound Stage, in addition to buses with Altiverb, Ozone, etc, this also takes several seconds to completely unload.
It seems that the unload time is proportional to the amount of RAM used.
But this delay is inexplicable, because if I kill the Sonar.exe process directly in the Windows Task Manager, it releases the RAM immediately, without any problem for Windows, nor for the project ...
post edited by rogeriodec - 2017/11/17 13:24:08

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jbraner
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 09:46:29 (permalink)
rogeriodec
In my orchestra template, where I use many instances of Kontakt, in addition to multiple instances of Virtual Sound Stage, in addition to buses with Altiverb, Ozone, etc, this also takes several seconds to completely unload.
It seems that the download time is proportional to the amount of RAM used.
But this delay is inexplicable, because if I kill the Sonar.exe process directly in the Windows Task Manager, it releases the RAM immediately, without any problem for Windows, nor for the project ...


That's exactly what I see. I think it's just doing some kind of "RAM housekeeping" or something, because everything is fine - even after killing the process.
Also - if you close SONAR, and switch off the computer (or reboot) before it "finishes" - it's also still fine.
 
I never considered this to be a problem - just a PIA sometimes when you want to close a file and open another one quickly ;-)

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er - that's it I think...
#11
rogeriodec
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 13:23:46 (permalink)
So, if we all agree that there is no problem in closing a project in a radical way as in the case of simply killing the whole process in task manager, I think this could become a formal request to bakers, what do you think?

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chuckebaby
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 13:38:34 (permalink)
Walt,
With the amount of plug ins on each track you have, are you using "Plug in load balancing" ?
Try doing a test by disabling it/or enable it and try your tests again.
 
With 5 plug ins per track, this sounds like a great candidate for load balancing.
 
In my projects I use a good amount of tracks (between 35-50) and quite a bit of plug ins and I don't see a big difference in time duration when closing large projects and smaller ones. a few seconds at best.
Im, not seeing any RAM being unloaded.  I have however, seen devices that hold my system hostage until they feel like letting go. This can be an audio device or a midi controller.
 
You can try removing all your devices and doing the same tests.
Also a bit of advise, if you are using 5 plug ins per track on multiple tracks, you may want to consider busing/routing options.
 

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#13
azslow3
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 14:36:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2017/11/17 16:22:55
rogeriodec
In my orchestra template, where I use many instances of Kontakt, in addition to multiple instances of Virtual Sound Stage, in addition to buses with Altiverb, Ozone, etc, this also takes several seconds to completely unload.
It seems that the unload time is proportional to the amount of RAM used.
But this delay is inexplicable, because if I kill the Sonar.exe process directly in the Windows Task Manager, it releases the RAM immediately, without any problem for Windows, nor for the project ...

That can be inducted by modern programming... Most plug-ins are written in C++. In the approach driven by its ground ideology, freeing RAM resources was the problem from the beginning. When computers was really slow, the effect was so obvious that everyone was carefully checking why program exit takes so long and eliminating that effect (there are several methods for that). But these days developers prefer advise users just get faster computer.
 
Probably some plug-ins are worse then other in that respect. Identifying such plug-ins  and begging for the "fix" has some chance to be noticed, but not a big chance.
 
When the program just use the whole memory (and long time ago) or asked to be freed at once (as during process killing today), individual "objects" do not have to be freed separately. But when a project is closed, all plug-ins are working as a part of Sonar. So Sonar can not "kill" all plug-ins at once without killing itself, it asks all plug-ins to exit gracefully. Plug-ins can use huge data structures, composed from individual (logically) elements. C++ compiler tries its best to aggregate standard data structures such a way that freeing single elements is not required when the whole structure should be freed. But as I have mentioned before, C++ ideology is strictly opposite, each individual element in any structure is an "object" with individual methods to do everything, including destroying. As the result, the "optimization" methods used in C++ (particularly in STL and other template based libraries) are based on rather tricky, hard to understand, not nice looking, error prone and not "object oriented" methods. For programmer, it is rather simple to write something which is technically correct, does what it should, produce no errors or warnings but silently prevent these optimizations. There is no good debugging/tracing/profiling tools to show such cases to the developer (at least I do not know such tools, and I periodically checking for them...).

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chuckebaby
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 16:43:49 (permalink)
azslow3
Probably some plug-ins are worse then other in that respect. Identifying such plug-ins  and begging for the "fix" has some chance to be noticed, but not a big chance.



+1

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#15
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 17:12:06 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Walt,
With the amount of plug ins on each track you have, are you using "Plug in load balancing" ?
Try doing a test by disabling it/or enable it and try your tests again.
 
With 5 plug ins per track, this sounds like a great candidate for load balancing.
 

Thanks Chuck. I'll take a look at "Plug in load balancing".
chuckebaby 
Also a bit of advise, if you are using 5 plug ins per track on multiple tracks, you may want to consider busing/routing options.



I do that on tracks that use doubling and/or multiple instruments of the same type (i.e. several trumpets), but most of my tracks are individual unique instruments that need their own parameters in the plug-ins.
 
Walt

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chuckebaby
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 17:29:31 (permalink)
WallyG
chuckebaby 
Also a bit of advise, if you are using 5 plug ins per track on multiple tracks, you may want to consider busing/routing options.



I do that on tracks that use doubling and/or multiple instruments of the same type (i.e. several trumpets), but most of my tracks are individual unique instruments that need their own parameters in the plug-ins.




im no one to question others but A limiter on every track ?
Just seem like a bit of over kill. Ozone plug ins suck up resources big time (im sure you know that).
I Would look at load balancing though ASAP.

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#17
WallyG
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Re: Should it take this long to close down projects? 2017/11/17 21:56:53 (permalink)
chuckebaby
...im no one to question others but A limiter on every track ?...

 
It's in one of my track templates that I use quite a bit. If I don't use it I delete it. About 60% of my tracks are acoustic instruments/vocals. I mostly use the limiters on the acoustic stuff.
chuckebaby
 
I Would look at load balancing though ASAP.



I just tried it on one project and it didn't make any difference on the closing times. I had looked a Load Balancing when it first came out but since I was not really experiencing a audio drop outs, I decided not to use it since by itself, it uses up resources.
 
Walt
 

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