Helpful ReplyAudioSnap

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kawika
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2018/01/04 09:19:39 (permalink)

AudioSnap

I wanted to tighten up a live drum recording and read about this (audiosnap). Should I have it? where is it? I have Platinum 21.13 establishing ownership back in 3/2016.
 
thanks!
#1
Anderton
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/04 09:43:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2018/01/04 10:20:24
Click on the clip, then choose Views > Audiosnap from the main menu bar.
 
People will tell you it doesn't work, but it does as long as you don't try to violate the laws of physics 

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Zargg
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/04 10:45:06 (permalink)
Hi.
My friend Charles made some videos on how to do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE06a_7Tzu4&list=PLBxMfcpVmZfxPC0Q0utR0NB0pOVD2dOJr
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#3
Piotr
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/04 15:14:29 (permalink)
Anderton
Click on the clip, then choose Views > Audiosnap from the main menu bar.
 
People will tell you it doesn't work, but it does as long as you don't try to violate the laws of physics 


Hmm, Sonar is putting transient markers often in bad places so I am not sure who is breaking physics first
In fact Sylvan's video is good illustration for this.
But of course, manually it is working perfectly. Probably my problem was watching too many s-f movies and my believe computers should do work for us not opposite 

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Piotr
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#4
kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 02:33:07 (permalink)
WOW! I did not know that was there. It looks pretty intuitive and I will view video suggested. I have been getting more into live drums lately and am conditioned to here pretty accruate tempo  from doing midi and loops. I'm now hopeful and open to any published material on this plug in.
 
thanks again!
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Cactus Music
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 03:05:20 (permalink)
I used to do that but now I use drum replacer. I then drag that to a midi track and trigger AD2.
Once the snare or kick are midi it is so much easier to manipulate. If the song was played to a click track it's super simple to quantize. Haven't had any luck with Hi Hats as there is to much bleed from kick and snare. 

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#6
Tim Flannagin
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 03:11:15 (permalink)
While we're on the subject of Audiosnap, when using REAPER, the audio clips automatically follow the project tempo. I've used Audiosnap to do that on a per clip basis in SONAR, but is there a better way?

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kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 04:40:44 (permalink)
hmmm.. I watched the suggested videos  (produced by  Charles P). I do appreciate him making them and he is very skilled. But....................there's got to be an easier way?
 
I even have Melodyne Studio 4.1 and am having difficulties. Johnny Vs suggestion to convert to midi, then edit and then , I guess, go back to audio, sounds interesting. Does anybody make a plugin that is accurate "out of the box" requiring less slicing and dicing?
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Cactus Music
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 05:28:14 (permalink)
I don't go back to audio as I am happy enough with the VST drums sounds as it is. The drummer we had back then had a terrible sounding kit anyways. And his timing was far from perfect. He's long gone so will never know :) 
 
But if you did want to revert back you can use the original drum audio and turn it into samples. Slice it into a short snippet in a wave editor. Put it in Superior Drummer or any sample player and trigger that. 
I sampled my acoustic drum kit and it's kinda cool to play it as a VST.. 
Working with an audio drum track fixing timing seems an endless chore, it can be done and a lot depends on the leakage between the mikes. 
Real hard to work with overheads. If your kick leaked into them and you correct the kick mike track you'll still hear the original timing in the overheads. 
 
So now the work starts!  
 
My solution was I isolated all the Tom rolls and managed to use drum replacer to turn them into midi. I had to manually set each note, drum replacer made them all 1 note. 
Then I just cheated and replayed the Hi Hat and cymbals using my Yamaha DX Kit. 
End result was a close approximation of the original but lacks all the audio voodoo. But once put in a song with all the other stuff you don't notice so much. 
So you sacrifice realizim for better timming which on certain songs is an improvment. 
 
 
 

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#9
kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 05:48:49 (permalink)
Thanks,   and good point Johnny V "If your kick leaked into them and you correct the kick mike track you'll still hear the original timing in the overheads."
I guess I'm imagining a program that could also "hear" the separate
 transients in all tracks (overhead and kick), sort them out, and adjust accordingly and accurately. Dreaming?
#10
kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 06:09:46 (permalink)
The closest I may get will be Johnny V's suggestion to record live drums, convert to midi and then, use samples of the initial audio (or some nice published samples). That might be ok.
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Anderton
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 08:17:20 (permalink)
AudioSnap requires a fair amount of manual labor. It's like creating Acidized or REX files - how well the process works depends solely on the ability to identify transients correctly. The simpler the material, the easier it is to identify transients.
 
If Cakewalk had called it "BeatSnap," people would not have had unrealistic expectations, and used it in the way where it worked best...if the source you're working on isn't percussive, it's a battle. But for drums, plucked instruments, and the like, it's very useful.
 
The complex warping algorithm in Ableton Live, which IIRC is licensed from zPlane, is the closest I've seen to doing an effortless job of what people wish AudioSnap could do. I use Live's warping to prep files for Traktor, which doesn't deal well with any files that don't have a metronomic beat.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 08:53:20 (permalink)
Thanks for that; I'm headed to research Ableton live. I suppose that technology is not available 3rd party to use in Sonar. And............by-the-way, thanks for all of your Guitar Player columns I used to read back in the day, carry on sir.
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chuckebaby
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 12:17:50 (permalink)
Ask yourself this...
How bad is it ? You don't need to fix every single drum part, only the ones that are unmistakable.
If his timing is drifting, don't be too concerned with it unless it is blatantly noticeable.
A little humanized drift is perfectly acceptable and much more preferred over a mechanical structured BPM.
 
The problem really starts when you fix a drifting tempo and then have to fix everything after that point.

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#14
rcklln
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 15:46:01 (permalink)
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Lord Tim
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 15:57:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rcklln 2018/01/05 15:59:28
Yeah, AudioSnap is hit and miss with transients out of the box, but if you know how to work with it, it's very effective. I'd tend to agree with Chuck in that sometimes it's better for the song to have things breathe a bit. Did you need to quantize it? You'd be surprised at how tight things sound once everything is playing together, rather than listening to the drums in isolation.
 
But that said, I lock my stuff in fairly tightly in most cases. I prefer the way it sits and it gives me more options for layering loops and sequences so nothing flams out with the typically busy drum parts we have. Check out this thread for a few ideas on how I get around the dodgy transients: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3388204

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rcklln
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 16:00:24 (permalink)
Thanks Lord Tim that is the thread reference I meant to post but my notes are a bit messy. Was very helpful to me.
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Lord Tim
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 16:01:50 (permalink)
Glad it helped! I've linked to it a few times now and I'm worried I'm wearing its welcome out! 

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Cactus Music
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 16:48:27 (permalink)
Yes it's amazing how bad the timing an be in a rock song and most would not notice. The problem for me is some of these tracks I have are original songs I `recorded with a real drummer and it's more the sound of those drums that bugs me than the odd timing issues. This is where drum replacer is awesome.  But I have other tracks recorded only with stereo drums and a drummer who sounded great, those I leave alone. 

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kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/05 21:43:58 (permalink)
Thanks, I will view the suggested links.
 
The drummer's overall tempo is fine, and I don't mind a little drifting especially with the nature of this particular tune. The drum sound I'm getting is pretty good. He tends to lose it a little coming in and out of fills ( a kick and snare hit here and there are off). Sometimes it's the hi hat or ride that's a little off. Again, I'm not picky about tempo and don't even mind, and sometimes like e.g., when the chorus  speeds up.
 
I'm going to continue to view the links suggested and work with Audiosnap and (I also have Melodyne Studio 4.1).
Also....I am going to try to have him play to a click (he did not do this beforehand).
 
And.....I thought we'd try a section at a time. For example, we will practice and play a verse. When we get a good one, then we'll copy it for all verses and do the same with the other sections. We won't record the fills (e.g., last measure before next session) until last.
 
Thanks so much for your input!
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kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/06 06:50:23 (permalink)
Thanks Lord Tim! I look forward to trying that. Interesting: a clean gated track (s) is necessary to generate a model for the other tracks to "hear" after which quality is upgraded by an additional move. Is that the gist?
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Lord Tim
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/07 04:16:22 (permalink)
Tried to reply last night but the forum kept eating it. Sigh.

Yeah, you're really only using the gate tracks for detection, they have no bearing on the sound quality at all.

The thing that does is when you quantize your tracks (is: the ones you'll actually be keeping) you'll need to bounce them to clips so it both freezes the transients and uses the superior offline stretching algorithm.

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kawika
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/09 00:57:46 (permalink)
Ok Tim (thanks again for the details!) Yea... I understand your first point re: gated just for detection.
Question: In your step 4, am I bouncing both the gated snare and gated kick to a single track or to 2 separate tracks?
It looks as though step 9 accounts for phasing issues between e.g., snare and overhead?I may have additional questions this weekend when I try it.
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Lord Tim
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Re: AudioSnap 2018/01/09 01:34:05 (permalink)
Yeah, you need the markers to be at the same place across all tracks and move exactly the same, which is the reason it's all added to the pool and the pool is quantized, or yeah - you get terrible phase issues everywhere.

You really don't need to create separate detection tracks if your drum part is fairly simple - most rock stuff is, most prog metal is NOT - you should be able to get clear hits on kick and snare without them getting overlapped or confused. The other reason you may want separate tracks is to do transient to MIDI conversion so you can overlay drum synth samples. If you don't need to do that, save yourself a step and bounce both your gated tracks down to one.

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