Helpful ReplyHelp Identifying this Sound Effect

Author
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
2018/01/07 17:49:45 (permalink)

Help Identifying this Sound Effect

Gents,
 
On many of the early classic 80's metal albums there is something on the guitar tracks I'm struggling to identify.  It may be a recording technique but I lean more toward some form of outboard gear or trick.  Strange sizzle in the upper frequencies.  Tube preamp, harmonic/aural exciter?  It is found on Sabbath's Heaven and Hell, Maiden's Beast, Dios' Holy Diver, etc. 
 
You can hear it during the break here at 1:50: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3jeAPGhrY
 
Any ideas or thoughts ??
 
      Sonic
#1
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 19:21:15 (permalink)
Sorry I don't hear any "sizzle" but I do hear a second part come in that's sort of like an organ but I think is just a guitar part layered in there. It could be a synth. 
 
Yes I think it is as you can hear a definite,, what ever that is when keyboard players wipe across the keys,, in the start of the solo/ 
 
Keyboardist Geoff Nicholls, who was a session keyboard player during the recording of this album,

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#2
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 20:04:04 (permalink)
It's all over the guitar track the entire song, but is easier to hear in that break pre-solo where just the guitars are playing.   It's the exact same thing found on a number of classic metal recordings in that early 80's era.  To hear it requires decent monitors and ears that have upper frequency recognition.  There's some kind of sizzle/hair/harmonics being added, rather prominently to the guitar tracks.  It tricks the ear into thinking it's part of the guitar tone, but it's really not.  
 
Sonic
#3
msmcleod
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 920
  • Joined: 2004/01/27 07:15:30
  • Location: Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 20:33:14 (permalink)
Going through some of the TH3 presets (Full version), some of the classic rock presets have this quality.
 
What they seem to have in common is boosting the treble on the amp to the point of it sounding really tinny and nasty, but then using a cab/mic combination that then takes most - but not all - of it away. So basically the cab is acting like an imperfect low pass filter.
 
#4
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 20:56:22 (permalink)
Could be, just keep in mind these recordings weren't made in an era with those kinds of tools.  This was either recording or outboard technique.  I doubt it was on the recording end as it would have then likely to have been attributed to a mic or slamming tube pre.  Given this is found on a number of different albums would indicate it wasn't a recording-side matter, but rather a common denominator in the outboard/mix side.  I'm trying to determine what it may have been so I can hunt down a VST that may create the same/similar effect.  I think it's also fair to assume it is not attributed to EQ as the carves would be complex in the upper harmonic registers and unlikely multiple albums would have the very same unique carves going on.  
 
Sonic 
#5
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 21:16:53 (permalink)
It could be a noise reduction artifact which was the Bane of tape based recording in those day's. 
Especially this happened in the upper frequencies. To mask the tape hiss Dobly or DBX, as example, would mess around with processing the upper frequency where the hiss was. I totally forget how it works because there's no point in remembering anymore.   Go read up on Tape hiss and noise reduction..  It will start all of us old goons off yelling at you for wanting to bring back what we don't miss about using tape :) 
Like the guy who wanted to figure out how to add record scratching to his recording,,,, geeeze///

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#6
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 23:37:41 (permalink)
I should add this effect tended to come from the big studio/producers in the US and UK, in particular Martin Birch (Deep Purple, Sabbath, Maiden).  Normally I might be inclined to attribute it to him specifically, but this same effect can also be found on recordings out of LA in that same era.  However, you won't tend to hear this effect in other music forms, it is usually heard only on certain forms of 80's classic metal or hard rock.  I'm leaning toward it possibly being an Aphex Aural Exciter.  That device was in use during late 70's early 80's IIRC and it polished up the top end by adding a bunch of harmonics (unlike the BBE).   That said, it could maybe be a DBX unit applied to cut down on noise from a hissy guitar amp, but I don't recall that unit creating the type of effect heard on the tracks.
 
Anybody know how to get hold of Martin Birch?  
#7
rj davis
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 141
  • Joined: 2006/08/25 19:03:25
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/07 23:51:46 (permalink)
Don't know how to get a hold of Martin Birch, BUT...I've been using Wave's Aphex Aural Exciter plugin a lot lately, and that COULD be it.  Don't actually play any metal-ish stuff, but the effect sounds a bit like you describe and suits me for both the acoustic and electric guitar parts I do (in moderation).  Waves offers a free trial on their plugins, you may want to give it a spin...

Ron
Windows 10
Sonar Platinum
i7-5700K 4.0 GHz StudioCat ProStudio (monster)
RME Babyface Pro
Mackie MCU Pro
Neumann TLM49
Too many guitars...
#8
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13146
  • Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/08 12:51:12 (permalink)
Just sounds like a cranked Marshall Plexi or JCM with onboard (desk) compression.
A little bit of chorus/Flange/Phase effect also seems distantly present.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#9
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13146
  • Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/08 12:54:14 (permalink)
I've always love Tony's sound. Listen to the album Paranoid and you will hear amazing solos like in War Pigs. Dual solos panned right/left. But the Sound of his pick ups in the SG with the combination of a Marshall. It just doesn't get any better really.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#10
.
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 729
  • Joined: 2015/05/25 01:53:03
  • Location: Good TImes :)
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/08 13:45:57 (permalink)
Except for the fact that he used Laney amps for the recording. He has and does use Laney amps more often than not, and certainly practically always live.
 
– Laney LA 100 BL
Known among some as pre-Supergroup. Tony used it on Black Sabbath and Paranoid albums.
 
 
What amps were you using in the early days of Sabbath, around the first album 'Black Sabbath'?
"I think I was using Marshall early on, and then Laney on the first album, but when we first wrote ['Black Sabbath'] songs I was using a Marshall 50-watt. I switched to Laney because they started up around the same time as us and they're a Birmingham company. To be honest, they offered to give us all this gear when nobody else did. What do you say to that? 'OK!' So I used them."
 
https://www.groundguitar.com/tony-iommis-guitars-and-gear/
 
http://www.musicradar.com...d-early-sabbath-310167
 
 
 

Intel i7 4790 @3.6Ghz - 32GB Ram - Windows 10 Pro 64bit - RME Fireface UFX+
Studio One 4 Professional, REAPER, CbB-(Couldnb't be Bothered)
More Plugs than Plumbers Warehouse.

 Happy Studio One User Since August 2015


"It's the entertainment value, the comic relief . . . plus the Software and Deals Forum"

#11
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13146
  • Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/08 17:21:28 (permalink)
Matron Landslide
Except for the fact that he used Laney amps for the recording.




Obviously not for the album the OP is asking about.
The link in the OP is a song from the album "Heaven and hell".
 
Marshall Super Lead 1959
This amp was modified by John “Dawk” Stillwell, who designed a new circuit for it that included an extra tube and a master gain control. The amp was used on Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules albums""
post edited by chuckebaby - 2018/01/08 21:12:53

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#12
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/08 21:40:14 (permalink)
Thanks for replies so far.
 
I swear to you guys, there is some sort of special sauce added on the tracks.  It took me years for my ears to finally hear it, but it is there.  It is not just the amp, nor mic related (unless a ribbon mic is being shredded).  The guitar track stems I obtained from Dio's Rainbow in the Dark have this same thing happening, that's when I noticed something unique is definitely going on.  Harder to hear in the actual mix but the same thing is happening on the tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcWKZTI9OC4
 
Some kind of high-frequency ear-pleasing harmonic content is being added or accentuated somehow.
 
#13
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13146
  • Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/09 14:44:19 (permalink)
After the breakdown on Neon knights I do hear (I believe) it sounds like a keyboard.
But its not at 1:50 its almost 2:00.
 
If you want to hear some great tones, check out this guy on You tube.
He is one/if not my favorite tubers.
 

 
I personally love SG and Les Paul's (the older ones). But my personal favorite guitar is my 2003 MIA Fender Strat with one Humbucker in the bridge. I don't like the twang of the Strats (The 3 single coils) So I pulled those out and put in a custom made Seymour Duncan from the 80's.
 
It just takes a while to find the right combination of Guitar/Amp. For me it was the Strat and a modded JCA Jet City 20.
I have Marshalls, Vox, Peavey 6505 and a slew of other amps including multiple cabinets with over 20 different speakers I pop in out of the cabs. Right now my fav is the Soldano 2x12 with a Vintage 30 and a Creamback.
But the JCA 20 with the Friedman mod just breaks up fast at lower volumes.

Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64
Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GB
Focusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
   
#14
35mm
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1105
  • Joined: 2008/12/09 08:21:44
  • Location: Devon, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/09 20:25:06 (permalink)
There's a swooshing phaser on the guitars just before the solo starts. Is that what you mean?

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#15
Rbh
Max Output Level: -52 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2349
  • Joined: 2007/09/05 22:33:44
  • Location: Indiana
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 00:05:29 (permalink)
Cactus Music
It could be a noise reduction artifact which was the Bane of tape based recording in those day's. 
Especially this happened in the upper frequencies. To mask the tape hiss Dobly or DBX, as example, would mess around with processing the upper frequency where the hiss was. I totally forget how it works because there's no point in remembering anymore.   Go read up on Tape hiss and noise reduction..  It will start all of us old goons off yelling at you for wanting to bring back what we don't miss about using tape :) 
Like the guy who wanted to figure out how to add record scratching to his recording,,,, geeeze///


You may onto something here - Dolby / DBX noise reduction circuits did a exaggerated high frequency emphasis when encoding and a reversed DE-emphasis upon decoding. There were scenarios where these could be switched on and off or bypassed. I remember wishing I could keep the emphasis on occasion but just dial it back a bit.

I7 930 2.8 Asus PDX58D
12 Gig
Appollo
CbB, Sonar Pro, Reaper, Samplitude, MixBuss
 Win7 Pro

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=902832
#16
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 00:11:43 (permalink)
35mm
There's a swooshing phaser on the guitars just before the solo starts. Is that what you mean?



Yes, that part, not the keyboards afterwards.  The gap where the drums stop.  It is an amazing effect that adds/accentuates harmonic distortion to the guitar tracks, it tricks the ears into thinking it is part of the guitar tone.  It is on the entire track, and many other guitar tracks on some early classic 80's stuff.  Martin Birch used this a lot.
 
I've got to figure out what it is.....it's what I've been missing.  You don't get that from a mic or speaker or amp.  It's something happening after the guitar chain, either during recording or mixing (probably the latter unless it is by chance attributed to noise reduction).
#17
35mm
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1105
  • Joined: 2008/12/09 08:21:44
  • Location: Devon, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 01:17:16 (permalink)
Hmmm, you don't mean the doubling sound? Kind of chorusy? There is a second guitar there. It's double tracked but has a different sound and is lower in the mix and panned about 50% left. Apart from that, there's a bit of phaser and the treble has been boosted on the saturating valves/tubes and there's a short reverb, maybe amp room ambiance. Then when the solo comes in there's some Hammond with it. I'm not hearing anything more special than that.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#18
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 04:33:25 (permalink)
There are clearly two guitars there. When it's done well you won't hear two distinct tracks, just one thick sound. Gilmore was especially adept at it, so good that you're rarely aware that nearly all Pink Floyd guitar solos were double-tracked. Black Sabbath never had that level of precision, so I think that's primarily what you're hearing: the chorusing of two distorted guitars playing in imperfect unison. However, I believe there is also a flanger happening in there; my guess would be an Electric Mistress.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#19
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 05:44:40 (permalink)
It's two tracks with typical stereo widening during mix.  But that has nothing to do with the effect I'm referring to.  Listen very closely, it tricks the ears and is very easy to miss.  It requires decent monitors with good top end. There is something being applied that has nothing to do with the native signal coming into the board.   There's an entire frequency/harmonic spectrum happening in the upper layers that is not coming from a guitar amp or typical effect.  
#20
thedukewestern
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 387
  • Joined: 2008/04/14 12:06:59
  • Location: NY
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 13:49:09 (permalink)
Wouldn't surprise me if its just a di from the distorted amp sound mixed back.  Check this out  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc3SxgT4uCw

Be the first one who thinks that you can
 
Sonar Platinum, Windows 7 64 bit - clean install January 2016, Focusrite Pro 40, Outboard Pres, Native Instruments Komplete, Izotope, PSP, Melodyne, Vegetarian
#21
JoeBaermann
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 23
  • Joined: 2016/06/30 11:02:01
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/10 16:20:31 (permalink)
@SonicExplorer

I think what your refering to is the side effect of the preamp/OD boost.
#22
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/17 02:50:43 (permalink)
I found a good example of this today in the intro to Joe Satriani's "Crushing Day"
 


James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#23
SonicExplorer
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 775
  • Joined: 2004/02/26 16:44:40
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/18 10:49:39 (permalink)
Maybe a bit, to me that song sounds more natural though, could be simply chorus and some EQ, along with widening.    The stuff I'm referring to is not just chorus and EQ, there's something else happening, you can tell by the un-natural frequency carvings and harmonics in the upper registers.  Back in the day, typically the drums and bass were tracked (sometimes with scratch guitars) and then guitars rigs were carefully mic'ed to accommodate the song, with tweaks to the EQ on tracks coming in.  Then in mix the guitars were already 90% there, they usually needed just another small nudge here or there on the track EQ.  Granted, yes, there were things such as an outboard parametric EQ or a 31 band EQ, but those were usually not used for guitars.  Point being, today with a DAW we can do all kinds of frequency carving, notching, etc - many many bands.  This entire approach was typically NOT utilized back in the day, rather as I explained.  So while today it is theoretically possible to get an EQ to help create the sounds I'm referring to, it is definitely not what is heard on the recordings I'm referring to. Especially given the same thing is heard on different releases with different artists and producers.  No way is that some fancy, complex analog EQ carving coincidence.   And not just attributed to reverb or modulus effect, or multi-track widening, rather something additional is being utilized.   Once your ears latch onto it, you'll hear it in various songs from the early 80's.   And then you can't ever un-hear it.  
#24
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/18 15:36:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby JRoque250 2018/01/18 19:37:51
"...un-natural frequency carvings and harmonics in the upper registers..."
That perfectly describes a flanger. 
 
And yes, it was all over the place in the 80's. Its popularity began in the late 60's, but back then it was used at extreme settings as a special effect. Think "Itchycoo Park".
 

 
Back then, the effect was not easy to achieve, requiring two tape recorders running in parallel and manually slowing one of them.
 
Then along came the Electric Mistress stompbox, which took it from being a tricky studio technique to something anybody could use. More importantly, it gave users more precise control over the parameters. That, and the fact that it was cheap, made it a standard piece of gear in the 80's. By then guitarists had figured out that if you made it a little more subtle and had it follow distortion, it fattened up the guitar sound without sounding like an obvious gimmick.
 
 
Here's an example of more subtle use of flanging in 1977:
 

 
It does that by filtration. Specifically, comb filtering. A comb filter creates a series of narrow, harmonically-related notches that are most audible in the upper frequencies. When static, it sounds like the inside of a pipe. But when the filters' frequencies are modulated, the continually changing filters create complexity in the spectral distribution. And if your signal is already spectrally dense, e.g. distorted, you get that thick interesting sound.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#25
JRoque250
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5
  • Joined: 2015/04/06 17:12:56
  • Status: offline
Re: Help Identifying this Sound Effect 2018/01/18 19:37:33 (permalink)
Hi. A slow flanger/phaser, maybe?

JR
#26
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1