Helpful Reply"Panning carving"? Does it exist?

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davdud101
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2018/01/31 16:22:40 (permalink)

"Panning carving"? Does it exist?

Hey guys,
I'm on the lookout for some sort of VST effect that will allow me to do panning on stereo tracks (busses mostly) similarly to EQing - a line that can be dragged up and down to boost or lower the volume of a track at certain panning angles (as opposed to frequencies like with EQ). 
 
Does this exist? Or am I making it up and just created a new concept that we should have had for years? Or would something like this even be necessary when we already have volume, panning, EQ and compression?

 
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#1
Lynn
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/01/31 18:10:15 (permalink)
Look up Pancake, a free VST that may be what you're looking for.

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reginaldStjohn
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/01/31 21:00:06 (permalink)
Are you talking about a bus that has multiple instruments or tracks routed to it and you want to pan elements in the Bus?  If that is the case then there are some tools but I am not quite sure what you are asking?
 
Melda has a panner that allows you to pan certain frequencies different from other frequencies.  We used to/still do, have Roland R-Mix that is kind of a frequency-stereo location tool for adjusting volumes in regions defined by a frequency-stereo location box.  Of course the easiest thing to do is to pan your individual tracks.

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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/01/31 23:06:07 (permalink)
Waves S-1 Stereo Imager might do it using asymmetry possibly
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Chandler
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 03:17:14 (permalink)
You can use something like this.
 

 
 
Using this you can pan by frequency. If you just want to move the line up and down to do simple panning of course the works, but its no different than using a pan knob.

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sharke
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 03:51:59 (permalink)
I get what you're asking for (I think). You want to take a sound that's spread out over the stereo field, and do things like "boost the volume of whatever's sitting at 30% left" and stuff like that. Using an interface that's like an EQ, but instead of the horizontal axis representing frequency, it represents pan position. 
 
I'm not clever enough to work out if that's possible, but when my brain tries to wrap my head around it I get little voices saying "that's probably more complicated to implement than it sounds." I don't quite know why, and perhaps someone is going to reply with "why, that's totally doable, in fact you can do it with X, Y or Z plugin," but what I'm thinking is that if you could do something like that, then it would be possible to do stuff like increase the level of a piano in a stereo mix without affecting anything else (provided the piano had its own definite space in the stereo field). And I don't think we can do that at this point. Unless I'm wrong (or have misinterpreted your question entirely). 
 
 

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batsbrew
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 15:56:29 (permalink)
waves s-1.
 
spread, and tilt

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sharke
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 16:13:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2018/02/01 20:40:59
batsbrew
waves s-1.
 
spread, and tilt




I don't think those do what he was asking - spread is just widening or narrowing, and tilt is basically taking the whole field and "rotating" it left or right. I think what Dave is asking is would it be possible to boost or attenuate specific pan positions in the stereo field without affecting the rest of the field. 

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mettelus
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 17:07:43 (permalink)
I admit I have read the OP four times now and still do not understand the question. Is this a static effect or dynamically based on volume? Due to a stereo field you are going to get a "net effect" rather than say notch out 6dB every 15 degrees in a full circle. You are still limited by the number of speakers you (or your listener) has.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 17:49:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2018/02/01 20:43:13
It is an interesting question.  What I am about to talk about may or not be a solution. But they are interesting.  Ben put me onto Waves Brauer Motion plugin.
 
https://www.waves.com/plugins/brauer-motion?km_source=google&km_medium=cpc&km_term=44217550980&km_campaign=828249049&km_device=c&km_matchtype=e&km_keyword=waves%20brauer%20motion&km_adid=201059467382&km_account=searchbrand&awid=1146922547&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKqigaCF2QIViYmPCh19hg9EEAAYASAAEgLBPvD_BwE
 
There are a new wave of plugins that are doing very interesting stuff with panning movements.  This one has two panners and they can act on L and R channels of course but also on a summed mono signal too.  They can pan in sync with each other or free run.  In sync with the session of course as well.  Not only that but the front to back movement can also be created as well as the left right movement creating a more circular motion all the way around.  Both panners can be circular or one can be flat left right panner.  There are many adjustments to the panning movements such as how deep and what shape the panning movements are making etc.. from a tight ellipse to a big wide circle.  All variable.  To a flat left right pan back and forth etc..
 
When you get into something like this too you realise how totally boring a flat left right pan actually is because that is what it is.  And that is what most DAW's will allow.
 
You can automate all this Brauer Motion movement too of course and create the very graphs for these panners yourself.  If you feel so inclined.  I thought this might all be a bit silly but once I started getting into it I realised how totally awesome an effect like this is.  It can do stuff to very wide stereo like synth sounds that nothing else can.  You can insert these panners on tracks, buses and your main mix if you want.  Waves had this on sale for $29 and for a time it was well worth it.
 
Another plug I found is called Panagement.
 
https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html
 
This one works in conjunction with one of your fave reverbs, preferably a very nice one.  It allows for very accurate front to back placement as well as left right placement.  There is a free version of this and that certainly shows off the basic effect.  All of these parameters can be automated as well in Studio One.  There is an LFO also for some automatic panning movement.  I have spent some time with this and this too is quite interesting and rather remarkable.  It is a more static type effect though compared to Brauer Motion which can be set up for some head spinning effects!
 

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#10
davdud101
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 20:15:21 (permalink)
Wonderfully interesting replies thus far! Sharke hit the nail on the head and then drove it into the coffin with his description:
 
sharke
I get what you're asking for (I think). You want to take a sound that's spread out over the stereo field, and do things like "boost the volume of whatever's sitting at 30% left" and stuff like that. Using an interface that's like an EQ, but instead of the horizontal axis representing frequency, it represents pan position. 



I'm not sure I could put in it in better words, but I guess I'll give it another shot based on what sharke wrote - 
an interface that looks sort of like an EQ, where the Y/vertical axis still controls the volume, but INSTEAD OF the horizontal axis controlling which frequencies are boosted and attentuated, it controls which PAN POSITIONS are booster and attentuated.
 
So that one can take, for example, a recording from a stereo pair of drum overheads, and then "carve out"/turn the volume down on, let's say, +30% and -65% to make room for a guitar part and a piano. Of course this could ONLY work on stereo recordings, otherwise it's just a pan pot.
 
So, being able to adjust the volume of a track at individual pan positions, leaving the rest of the stereo image in full volume. It definitely seems like it ought to be possible, but I guess it can only work when sounds are more or less the same volume across the entire stereo field.
 
I'm gonna have to go back and check out the replies a few more times and look at some of the posted plugins to see if anyone has something that matches the description though - but hopefully that clears something up. 
It's not a plugin that I *NEED* or even plan to use much - it was more of just a thought that came to me that could make for a really cool and useful tool that eliminates a little bit of the guesswork when it comes to making space in the mix for a large number of instruments.

 
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Kev999
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/01 23:07:17 (permalink)
The absence of a qualifier such as "I realise that stereo placement is determined by the relative levels of the left and right channels, but..." makes me think that the question is naive. Otherwise it's an interesting concept

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davdud101
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 04:21:31 (permalink)
Kev999
The absence of a qualifier such as "I realise that stereo placement is determined by the relative levels of the left and right channels, but..." makes me think that the question is naive. Otherwise it's an interesting concept



Well, yeah, that's obvious. This concept would only be effective in the case that the track/recording is stereo and has information across the entire stereo field, and not just hard-panned L/R, for example. So like a chorus or reverb effect.
 
But now that I think about it, there are only those two L/R channels that determine the stereo placement, so actually yeah, it is a bit naive. It'd actually only be a SUPER-FINE attentuator for those two channels. 
 
 But I'm just a kid learning the art in his free time 

 
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Chandler
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 04:30:08 (permalink)
It’s an interesting idea, but I don’t think it really makes sense. Panning isn’t really moving a sound around, it only adjusts the volume of different speakers. When you pan a sound to the left you are just turning up the left speaker and turning down the right. The placement of sound is an auditory illusion, so turning up or down something at a certain pan position doesn’t seem possible.

Of course someone could make something that functions like our human perception and splits the audio into bands based on the relative ratios between the left and right channels. I don’t know how well this would work though and it might cause some artifacts.

Now that I think about it, you might be able to do this with Meldas panorama crossover, but I’m not sure.

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ooblecaboodle
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 11:13:01 (permalink)
davdud101
Kev999
The absence of a qualifier such as "I realise that stereo placement is determined by the relative levels of the left and right channels, but..." makes me think that the question is naive. Otherwise it's an interesting concept



Well, yeah, that's obvious. This concept would only be effective in the case that the track/recording is stereo and has information across the entire stereo field, and not just hard-panned L/R, for example. So like a chorus or reverb effect.
 
But now that I think about it, there are only those two L/R channels that determine the stereo placement, so actually yeah, it is a bit naive. It'd actually only be a SUPER-FINE attentuator for those two channels. 
 
 But I'm just a kid learning the art in his free time 


Hmm, it's an interesting concept to think about. The reality of how we record and edit things is that we have (for stereo) two channels, two outputs, two speakers. In order to "pan", there's no magic going on, it's just adjusting the level of a signal to one channel relative to the other.
 
But our ears and auditory systems perceive location information using a variety of methods, such as timing differences, frequency differences, and loudness.
In order to achieve more "weird" panning effects, we need to therefore recreate this by adjusting the relative timing (phase), frequency and loudness of signals in each channel.
 
I know of one plugin (Pan Noir) which is designed to pan individual channels of a classical concert-style recording, so that they match the timing delays of the main stereo pair used. Other than that, mix engineers use a few funny little phase and EQ tricks to place particular effects in the mix.
 
So, yeah, whilst the original question may possibly be naive in it's assumption of stereo information, it definitely raises some interesting ideas about unusual panning processing.
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davdud101
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 12:51:33 (permalink)
After giving it a moment of thought, I understand why it wouldn't work.
 
You guys are right, there is no stereo field, it's an illusion - there's only how much or how little a sound is heard in one channel vs the other.
 
Otherwise an application that's been described here would need to be capable of constantly determining which sounds in the left and right channel correspond to one another (based on present frequencies, timing, volume, etc), possibly create some sort of "spacial map" based on how loud certain frequencies are in each channel, make adjustments to the correct frequencies, AND still playback live with no latency.
 
I'm pretty terrible at explaining things as most of you guys have seen lately, but this is my way of putting it. It's also a bit tough to explain because the words I wanna use aren't on my tongue and the concepts I mean to explain are still a bit foreign for my pea-sized brain.
 
But it's probably not doable.
 
Heck, it's definitely 100 times easier sticking with a pan pot and a volume slider in this case.

 
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dcumpian
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 13:26:49 (permalink)

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Michael A.D.
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 13:54:58 (permalink)
I like Cableguys PanShaper2:
 
http://www.cableguys.com/panshaper.html
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 14:04:32 (permalink)
There is a lot more acoustics to this than meets the eye. On the transmission end, sound is monophonic (per source), so the only way to get such a distribution is from multiple sources, but the result will still produce a net result due to how it propagates. On the receiving end, pan is determined from the time delay at the receivers (again the net result), and you cannot affect human capability beyond what it is. Two receivers also "dumbs down" the resolution capability, so a wider separation is necessary to determine multiple sources. Even with hundreds of detectors (a real SONAR), it only provides better accuracy to each monophonic source (and the ability to resolve them).
 
Just food for thought... engineers cherry pick situations to suit argument... with two speakers playing the same thing, you get a "center pan"... however... turn your head 90 degrees and now it pans to the ear closest to both (the net result) sources. The position of the listener plays as much into things as the source. Get far enough from 2 speakers, and they will collapse to mono (loss of resolution).

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ooblecaboodle
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 15:46:46 (permalink)
mettelus
Just food for thought... engineers cherry pick situations to suit argument... with two speakers playing the same thing, you get a "center pan"... however... turn your head 90 degrees and now it pans to the ear closest to both (the net result) sources. The position of the listener plays as much into things as the source. Get far enough from 2 speakers, and they will collapse to mono (loss of resolution).

That's not cherry-picking situations to suit an argument, that's just discussing the correct bleeding context. FFS.
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abacab
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 16:49:08 (permalink)
Interesting question!  I have long been fascinated with binaural recordings, especially when using headphones to listen to playback.
 
Most of us have two ears, and the 3D sound world around us is experienced by the cues our brain perceives in the slight difference in timing that a sound arrives at each ear.  We can usually tell the direction that a sound originated, whether it was front, back, left, right, near, far, or somewhere in between.
 
The binaural recording only requires a two channel microphone setup, with the mics spaced about the width of a human head, about the same distance apart that our ears are.  One example would be to situate the mics on a mannequin head for realism.
 
It is amazing how real the "illusion" of a stereo field is using this method.  The first time I heard an insect buzzing around my head in the headphones, I was ready to swat it down, because it sounded that real!
 
The free plugin by Auburn Sounds, Panagement (binaural panner), will let you set a channel in your mix anywhere in the stereo space.  Set up a couple tracks in a mix with this plugin and try moving them around.  >https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html

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#21
belltunes
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/02 16:55:10 (permalink)
Not sure if this relates to the original subject, but this panning related plugin looks intriguing...
https://www.uaudio.com/ua...cyclosonic-panner.html
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sharke
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/04 00:58:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ooblecaboodle 2018/02/06 14:30:06
I think the idea of stereo spread is even more of an illusion than people think. I can't find the link now, but a while ago I read an article by some audio boffin in which he outlined experiments he did in which he got people to place sounds in the stereo field and then follow them as they panned. I can't remember the exact details, but it turns out that the idea of things moving smoothly in space across the field is largely bogus, and instead they tend to jump between a small number of fixed positions. So when you're fine tuning your pan pots by very small amounts, it doesn't really make any difference in the perceived position. I have to admit, when I hear people talk about panning their snare or hats like 3% left or right to "make room" for the kick and the vocal, I do feel like they're kidding themselves. Personally I only use about 2 or 3 different pan positions on each side in my mixes. I like the sound of LCR mixes as well, they always sound really solid to me. 

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#23
davdud101
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/05 18:32:01 (permalink)
sharke
I think the idea of stereo spread is even more of an illusion than people think. I can't find the link now, but a while ago I read an article by some audio boffin in which he outlined experiments he did in which he got people to place sounds in the stereo field and then follow them as they panned. I can't remember the exact details, but it turns out that the idea of things moving smoothly in space across the field is largely bogus, and instead they tend to jump between a small number of fixed positions. So when you're fine tuning your pan pots by very small amounts, it doesn't really make any difference in the perceived position. I have to admit, when I hear people talk about panning their snare or hats like 3% left or right to "make room" for the kick and the vocal, I do feel like they're kidding themselves. Personally I only use about 2 or 3 different pan positions on each side in my mixes. I like the sound of LCR mixes as well, they always sound really solid to me. 




 
Haha, if you do find that article sharke, definitely link it here! I typically don't use more than about 7 - 9 positions - center, plus roughly  quarter on each side. 
That article is definitely something I'd like to check out, maybe I'll search for it and see if I can find it

 
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Kev999
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Re: "Panning carving"? Does it exist? 2018/02/05 20:35:57 (permalink)
sharke
...panning their snare or hats like 3% left or right to "make room" for the kick and the vocal, I do feel like they're kidding themselves. Personally I only use about 2 or 3 different pan positions on each side in my mixes. I like the sound of LCR mixes as well, they always sound really solid to me.

 
It makes more of a difference with headphones though. Through headphones I can usually tell if one of the instruments is slightly off-centre and doesn't quite line up with other instruments.

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