Helpful ReplyAmp sims

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yellowcake64
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2018/04/25 12:08:23 (permalink)

Amp sims

Hi all,

I’m posting this out of sheer desperation really. I bought the full version of Overloud TH3 and am using it with a Tascam US-4 x4 interface and Rokit 6 monitors.

Try as I might I simply can’t get a decent overdriven guitar sound. in fact many if the presets sound absolutely terrible. I’ve done all the obvious - inputs into the Tascam sound OK; instrument setting selected on the Tascam; no clipping. The overdriven/distorted sounds are awful - really fuzzy and unnatural.

On the Tascam in the settings panel there’s an option for a ‘monitor’ mix or a ‘computer’ mix. With the former, via a knob, you can monitor directly to alleviate latency. I’ve never really understood why you would select one or the other? Can this affect the quality of the sound? I’m currently using ‘computer 1-2’ so the mix knob is redundant. Should I be using the monitor setting?

Sorry if I’m being a bit vague. I’ve been messing around with this for days and am so disappointed with the quality of the results I’m getting. I’m really not expecting a magic bullet from anyone to help with this because there’s so many variables but perhaps some if you may have had problems with amp sims in general and can point me in the right direction. Many thanks.

Dave

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#1
KingsMix
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 13:37:06 (permalink)
A good direct box is what you are missing.
Yeah, you can get a "decent" sound with sims without a good D.I., but I guarantee you are going to see the night and day difference in the quality of your sound. I don't really see this talked about that often when discussing amp sim sounds. Buy , try, test, don't like it send it back (but you won't).
Something like this one (highly recommend the Countryman 85, worth it's weight in gold and built like a tank). A staple in many major studios, and for good reason.
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Slugbaby
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 14:14:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/04/26 18:04:43
I disagree with KingsMix.  I think your Tascam should be good enough to overcome what sounds like an extreme problem with the signal or sims.
First off, how is your gain staging?  is the signal coming through the Tascam at the right level (not clipping, but present)?  Make sure that the signal going into the TH# Sim is also at a decent level.
Then take into account what the presets are.  They are usually very generic and i'm not sure who they're really meant for.  For me, i've never liked presets, they almost never sound good (imo).  Find a sim of an amp you like.  Run it clean, and tweak the amp knobs until you get a decent clean sound.  Then increase the gain slowly (either on the amp or with an OD pedal), and you should get a solid overdriven guitar sound.  Be careful not to overdo the gain, that tends to ruin a sound pretty quickly.

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#3
henkejs
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 15:31:07 (permalink)
Slugbaby
Find a sim of an amp you like.  Run it clean, and tweak the amp knobs until you get a decent clean sound.  Then increase the gain slowly (either on the amp or with an OD pedal), and you should get a solid overdriven guitar sound.  Be careful not to overdo the gain, that tends to ruin a sound pretty quickly.

This^^
 
I had the same experience with the version of TH3 that came with Platinum. Their instructions for setting the input level gave horrible results whether on clean or overdriven sounds. When I cut back the input gain, the sounds improved dramatically.

A few of my songs
 
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#4
yellowcake64
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 15:40:43 (permalink)
Food for thought fellas. Thank you!
 
Dave

Yellowcake
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#5
TheSteven
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 18:25:19 (permalink)
henkejs
When I cut back the input gain, the sounds improved dramatically.


Line 6 PodFarm has the same issue. 
I got a better DI because I thought the signal was was weak and that a clean hotter signal would improve things.
It didn't. The hotter signal made everything sound like crap.
Try lowering your input.

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#6
TheSteven
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 18:35:12 (permalink)
KingsMix
Something like this one (highly recommend the Countryman 85, worth it's weight in gold and built like a tank). A staple in many major studios, and for good reason.




The Countryman 85 rocks - you can occasionally pick one up on eBay for a song.

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#7
cuetec502
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 18:55:32 (permalink)
Ive found that no matter what di im using, when using th2 or th3 i always find myself putting a distortion pedal in front of the distorted head and mixing the both gains for a decent distortion. Usually seems like one or the other just sounds bland by themselves. But then again as stated above, if youre not careful you risk having way too much gain and sounding way overdriven. Best thing about sims though, you can change everything again later, haha.
#8
HeatherHaze
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 19:08:32 (permalink)
KingsMix
Something like this one (highly recommend the Countryman 85, worth it's weight in gold and built like a tank). A staple in many major studios, and for good reason.



The Countryman DIs are still good, but the newer Radials blow them out of the water.  I replaced all my Countrymans with Radial J48s (active) DIs.  The signal is stronger and more transparent.  The passive version (JDI) is also great, and provides better isolation. 

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#9
yellowcake64
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 20:40:34 (permalink)
OK guys. Probably something really obvious I'm missing here but:
 
When I turn the channel gain on the Tascam interface right down to virtually zero, on the TH3 interface when I strum my guitar, the input levels are still hitting 50% on the meter. I can't reduce the levels any further via the Tascam yet they're still quite 'warm' on the TH3 meter. What's going on? How can I reduce the signal level into TH3 more than I already have?
 
Dave 


Yellowcake
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#10
mettelus
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 21:18:08 (permalink)
+1 to the above advice on lowering input level. My interface still passes signal using mic input (I have hot humbuckers), so I set mine to line level and use a slightly higher input level; but still on TH3 I never hit green and the TH3 output is rather high.

If I ever put TH3 in the green, it will distort both TH3 and require my interface input to clip to get there.

Bottom line, be wary about the input meters in TH2/3. Let common sense guide you.

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BobF
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/25 21:59:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/04/26 11:22:57
Check this out:
https://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/-seven-steps-to-amp-sim-goodness
 
I use a DI box, target -10 peaks on the input and use a HP/LP pair in front of sims. 

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#12
yellowcake64
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/28 16:14:08 (permalink)
Hi all, 
 
It seems I've largely solved the problem with the purchase of this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0036FEKMK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
It seems that despite my Tascam interface offering instrument and line input options, it wasn't enough to get a decent sound. I simply plugged the Zbox into my interface and then my guitar into the Hi-Z port on the Zbox. The result - an absolutely vast improvement. The circuitry seems to do something to the sound to level and smooth everything out creating a much more pleasing overdriven sound. Didn't cost a fortune either.  
 
Paul White, Editor in Chief of Sound on Sound is a guy who's opinion I respect. I found this article: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/motu-zboxdi-impedance-corrector plus it's mentioned in an earlier post referencing Craig Anderton's tips for improving the sound of amp sims. 
 
Works for me. Thanks again for all your help. 
 
Dave 
 
 

Yellowcake
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#13
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/04/28 16:39:20 (permalink)

post edited by mister happy - 2018/04/30 19:21:33


#14
gswitz
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/29 00:00:57 (permalink)
For gain staging, remember the gain knob on the track. This doesn't risk clipping of the recorded track but can help with the vibe.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#15
Grem
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/29 19:17:57 (permalink)
mister happy
It seems noteworthy that you have solved your concern by purchasing a dedicated 1MOhm buffer stage. 
 
Did anyone ever ask if you have flipped the switch on your Tascam 4x4 on "IN 1" or "IN 2" from "MIC/LINE" from the 2.2kOhm LINE input setting to the 1MOhm "INST" input setting?
 
If not, give it a try and see if this replicates what the ZBox provides.
 



 
^^^^This.

Grem

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TheMaartian
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/29 22:35:53 (permalink)
I have the 4x4's big brother, the 16x08. Even with passive pickups (that is, ALL of my guitars and basses ), I have to set the INST/LINE inputs to LINE.
 
Concerning the Input/Computer knob:
 
Since you are trying to listen to the output of TH3, you need to set the knob 100% to Computer. Anything else will mix some of your input (guitar) with the output coming from TH3. You don't want that.
 
Think of it as a Wet/Dry knob. Dry is your guitar input. Wet is the TH3 output. You want 100% Wet.
 
And hopefully, you're using ASIO and not the Tascam Mixing Driver (if available for the 4x4; it installs by default along with the ASIO driver for the 16x08).

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BenMMusTech
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/30 07:49:19 (permalink)
If you're using Sonar, first in the signal chain should be the tube sim, I use this to level the signal and add some 2nd level harmonic distortion. If you're after a crunchy over driven sound perhaps try 1 instead of 2 if you're after a really 80s transistor type over driven sound. I tend to use 2 because it's softer on the highs. Just listen when you dial in the distortion. I then tend to use a low shelf filter - normally the one supplied with GR4...just till off a gentle amount because you will roll off more. I tend to then feed the signal straight into an amp sim. For over driven transistor type crunch you can't go past a marshal sim, if it's softer then a hi watt. You could alternatively add an overdrive pedal into the signal chain before the amp sim. What most people don't quite understand is, that to achieve an album type sound from a guitar sim you then need to mix it properly. After the amp sim I will then use an EQ and compressor. I use my ears to decide which I want first. Also, I use Wave's analouge emulation plugs. So for me, there are some great options that really add to the sound. For example, Kramer's Pye stuff is excellent for rock guitar. Eddie Kramer used a lot of these EQs and compressors on Hendrix's music and also Zeppelin. If you're after a pop type guitar sound you can't go past the TG12345 emulator - The Beatles and Pink Floyd. The Schepp Neve EQ is great too and finally any of the SSL stuff is great on guitars particularly on 80s style over driven guitar. Most of these plugs can be picked up for 30 bucks a pop now too...sweet.

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#18
Daibhidh
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/30 23:14:13 (permalink)
Let me recommend my preferred amp sims:
Bias
Mercurial
That's it!

Check out YouTube demos and you'll be amazed at how realistic and high quality they sound.
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Daibhidh
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Re: Amp sims 2018/04/30 23:20:37 (permalink)
I'd see if I could get a refund, if you're not satisfied with the guitar tones. I think Overloud makes some amazing EQs, but I think there are better options for guitar tones.
#20
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