LENovik
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Vocals processing
I have Sonar X3 and a bunch of hardware synths. I just recorded a vocal. Of course, it's never loud enough for the mix. I have read some excellent material in these pages, suggesting, ie, that I do 2 takes, and then, from one of them, make a clone. Then put all 3 together, with 2 and 3 panned maximally in each direction. However, prior to doing that, there is still "making the vocal louder," with, I would think, compression. And then there's, of course, effects, such as reverb. 1 question: do I compress first, or apply effects? I should say that the first thing I did was pitch correcting in Melodyne, so that's done now. Perhaps I don't even compress, but that's the thing that has seemed to make the voice more "present" in the past. If I should be visiting another part of Sonar for this type of question, perhaps you could steer me that way. Thanks LNovik
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Lynn
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/29 22:14:24
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/05/02 16:21:55
A good rule of thumb is to compress first, then add EQ and f/x. However, nothing is written in stone. If you're having trouble getting the vocal to be loud enough, remember, you can always turn everything else down until the vocal sits right. You really won't be sacrificing headroom.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/29 22:27:06
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This probably could also go into “Techniques” forum, but I will leave such decisions to the mods. There are a lot of general tips and techniques that may help, but hard to pinpoint your issue without hearing material. Many times when voice isn’t “present” it is not so much a matter of loudness but an issue of how vocal sits in mix. Use a good analyses like the free SPAN meter by Voxengo to see if your instrumental is fighting your vocals for space. Making a vocal louder that has no space to fit in mix is like thinking being fatter will make you more succeful at musical chairs. Being bigger only means you are trying to cram more into a space that is not available. Once you are sure proper space is available where the vocal lives frequency wise, a couple things may help. Saturation can help give presence to get on top of mix. Another method is using something like a micro-delay. Good luck
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bitman
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/29 22:57:15
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duck the music with the vox using a side chain. Also push the music out to the sides to clear out the middle. leaving the drums and bass there. And put the vox in the center.
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35mm
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/29 23:08:34
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/05/02 16:23:13
You have started one of those threads where you will get every opinion under the sun. But, in short, stereo space + eq + compression = the basic 1st steps. No one yet has mentioned bringing the mix down to fit the vocals in or at least leaving room for the vocals in the mix. If you are up for a technical challenge you could use a spectral editor to subtract the vocal from the mix, then add it back in. There are many ways to crack this nut but it depends on the sound/style you want to go for and you haven't mentioned that. So you will get many opinions, but no answer.
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dahjah
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 01:02:24
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Try the CA-2A on the vocal
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gswitz
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 02:01:10
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Putting EQ before compressor is a way of causing the compressor to trigger more on certain frequencies. Sometimes, people push up one zone prior to the compressor then pull it down after. I rarely do that. Instead, I use a side chain input on the compressor and apply the EQ to the sidechain signal. That enables you the chance to highpass the signal or lift the highs to de-ess without having to undo it later. Using the high-pass filter on the side-chain version of the channel helps preserve bass dynamics. The issue of making room for the vocal is a little different. Sometimes folks will use a multi-band or massively-multi-band compressor to compress the mix around the vocal range. This can be pretty exact and useful where the vocals are strong. The thing is, that the amount of room created is proportional to the strength of the vocal. When the vocal is quiet or subtle, this effect becomes less pronounced. It's a technique useful for loud bands where the singer isn't usually subtle. :-) Another trick that can be used to make room for vocals is automated EQ. You can suppress the mid-range of the rhythm guitar during the singing for example. It's usually easy to see when the vocal is happening based on the wave form. Just pull the mid-range that competes with the vocal only when the vocal is present. Sometimes a little exciter effect is enough to make it possible to make out the words in the vocal. I have long guessed that the gloss feature on the PC EQ was a touch of exciter.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Anderton
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 02:46:58
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☄ Helpfulby davehorch 2018/05/01 13:43:12
Here ya go. Part of this article describes using phrase-by-phrase normalization and gain changes in Sonar to do the "heavy lifting" before adding dynamics processing, but of course it applies to Calkwalk by BandLab as well. I also wrote up a similar tip for the PreSonus blog, where I can use more graphics to get a point across than in Sound on Sound articles that cover multiple related topics. The principle is the same for either program.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 04:29:01
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If a recording hasn't got the right level - relative to the rest of the mix - use the gain knob to reset it to around -18 rms and -3 peak. Simple.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 04:29:01
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If a recording hasn't got the right level - relative to the rest of the mix - use the gain knob to reset it to around -18 rms and -3 peak. Simple.
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Euthymia
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 06:22:19
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☄ Helpfulby davehorch 2018/05/01 15:30:50
There are lots of really good YouTube tutorial videos on this topic, search on "how to make a lead vocal stand out in a mix." The basic concept I had to grasp was that before I could push the level of the lead vocal up I needed to make the lead vocal track "ear friendly" by applying subtractive EQ and compression to it. I think of it as getting ready to pet a kitten. I'm softening the touch. Which is not to say I'm making it wimpy, it works for any sound, light pop, metal, whatever. With a parametric or linear EQ (the one in ProChannel is excellent for this), I find the one or two worst "honk" frequencies (again, search for how to find and cut honk frequencies out of an audio track), and cut them by about 3dB. I also roll the very low stuff off with a high-pass filter, up to at least 150Hz. Then I apply a clean compressor at 4:1 ratio until it's taking about 4-5dB average off, if it's a pop song. Season to taste, this is where I start. Once you get that going, you may find that you can take that vocal track and bring it up without it sounding like it's walking all over everything else. It can be louder without dominating, and it can also be softer while still being intelligible. The listeners' ears will feel "safe" listening closely to elements that have been processed this way because they will not be jabby. I throw the same recipe on acoustic instruments as well with good result. A CA-2A or similar "soft, slow" compressor after all that, on the track or on the vocal bus if you have backing vocals or doubled or tripled vocals will further smooth and shine and also help "glue" whatever's in the bus together for you. Search for "stacking compressors."
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bitflipper
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 14:17:51
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2018/05/01 14:17:16
All good suggestions above, but many of the suggested steps, e.g. applying compression, are for later in the process. You have to start with some coarse leveling and normalization to get in the ballpark, and only then proceed to EQ and compression. When you are your own engineer, it's difficult to monitor mic levels to keep them within a safe-but-hot range, so we all tend to err on the side of caution and be conservative when tracking. This often results in levels that are too low and/or inconsistent. But even the wildest swings in level can still be molded into a steady up-front vocal track. First step is coarse normalization. Play back the vocal track and note its highest peak value. This is to determine how much headroom you're starting with, and to identify which clip is hottest. If it's -12 dB or higher, no normalization is required and compression alone can handle the volume boost. If not, use Process -> Gain to boost it accordingly. You can apply a surprising amount of gain without harming the take. I've boosted vocals by 40 dB without significant noise issues (although those were cleanly recorded in a very quiet room). Next, apply gain to each of the quieter clips so they get closer to the hottest one identified in step one. The easiest way to do this is via a gain plugin that can be automated. I use Blue Cat's gain plugin - it's free, fully-automatable, with adjustable range and the ability to link multiple instances to one automation lane. It's important to do this before applying any effects. If there are any notable "woofs" or sibilance in the performance, you can also use gain automation at this time to mitigate them. It's only after you've achieved consistent volume across the entire track that it's time to apply remedial EQ (as opposed to creative tone-shaping EQ). Talking mainly about high-pass filtering. You want to remove any excess low-frequency energy before the signal hits the compressor. I'll let others rattle off their favorite compressors and compression techniques. All of the above should happen before you even think about which compressor to stick in.
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gswitz
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/04/30 22:34:47
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Craig Anderton, thank you for all your amazing contributions!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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LENovik
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/01 00:09:26
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Wow, some great suggestions. Thanks for the time. I'll have to spend some hours with trying to understand it all. However I'll start with one of the earlier suggestions: 1)duck the music with the vox using a side chain. 2)Also push the music out to the sides to clear out the middle. leaving the drums and bass there. And put the vox in the center. I definitely understand the 2nd item; that is, about panning. Re: duck the music with the vox using a side chain. I have no idea what "duck" or "vox" means. I also wouldn't know a side chain if it hit me in the knees (from the side, naturally.) I guess I'll have to look that up. I actually really have heard of side chains, but just wouldn't know where to find them. I like the idea of looking at some videos as well, though, as I said, I'll also try to go thru each recommendation 1 by 1. Thanks again. LNovik
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Jesse G
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/01 01:15:51
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Peace,Jesse G. A fisher of men <>< ==============================Cakewalk and I are going places together! Cakewalk By Bandlab, Windows 10 Pro- 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-Z97X-SLI, Intel Core i5-4460 Haswell Processor, Crucial Ballistix 32 GB Ram, PNY GeForce GTX 750, Roland Octa-Capture, Mackie Big Knob, Mackie Universal Controller (MCU), KRK V4's, KRK Rockit 6, Korg TR-61 Workstation, M-Audio Code 49 MIDI keyboard controller.[/
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davehorch
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/01 17:34:58
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Hi LENovik. I know it all gets confusing at first, no problem. "Duck" in this context means lowering the volume of something(s) for a period of time. "Vox" is just shorthand for "Voice" or "Vocals". As for "Side-Chain", here is a straightforward article that explains the use of a compressor's side-chain input and how to use it for "ducking" your music volume under the volume of your "vox" track(s)> --> http://www.practical-music-production.com/sidechain.html Good luck, -DAve
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bdickens
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/02 02:34:21
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/05/02 16:26:04
Too much of the advice being given is putting the cart before the horse.
Step ONE happens in preproduction: arrange the parts so that there is a hole in the frequency spectrum for the vocals to sit in. If you have a bunch of instruments and a vocal fighting for the same space in the mix, you are starting out behind the power curve and the vocals will probably loose.
Step TWO: the vocals are the most important thing in the mix. Everything else exists to support them. Adjust the levels of the other instruments to fit them, not the other way around.
Step three is to use complimentary eq to - you guessed it - carve out a hole in the frequency spectrum for the vocals to sit in. If you emphasize a particular frequency on your vocal, cut it on everything else.
If you do all the stuff I mentioned, then your mix is gonna be probably about 90% done before touching any faders, compressors or anything else for that matter.
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jude77
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/02 16:31:11
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bdickens Too much of the advice being given is putting the cart before the horse.
Step ONE happens in preproduction: arrange the parts so that there is a hole in the frequency spectrum for the vocals to sit in. If you have a bunch of instruments and a vocal fighting for the same space in the mix, you are starting out behind the power curve and the vocals will probably loose.
Step TWO: the vocals are the most important thing in the mix. Everything else exists to support them. Adjust the levels of the other instruments to fit them, not the other way around.
Step three is to use complimentary eq to - you guessed it - carve out a hole in the frequency spectrum for the vocals to sit in. If you emphasize a particular frequency on your vocal, cut it on everything else.
If you do all the stuff I mentioned, then your mix is gonna be probably about 90% done before touching any faders, compressors or anything else for that matter.
This is really good advice, especially item #1. You gotta start with a good arrangement. Listen to some songs in the same style you're trying to record and you'll get an idea of what to do. One of the things that surprised me when I really started listening to arrangements is how little is going on while the singer is singing. Usually it's only bass, drums, some type of bed (maybe one guitar or keyboard) and the singer. Good luck. And if you get stuck come back here and post your song.
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LENovik
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/05 10:28:27
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Thanks for that last reply, Jude77. Of course, I've heard of keeping frequencies separate, so as to make room for each spectrum. It just seems so NON-intuitive to me. I guess I could see it if I were singing "Jingle Bells," which only goes from C to G. But most songs are sung over at least an octave, I would think. The bass guitar and bass drum would be easy with this, but what about piano and guitar--and other percussion sounds? I think of posing in a picture with several other people; if I wanted to be noticed, or stand out, it seems I would have to distort everyone else to be either much shorter or taller, so that each one of them would have their bodies compressed into about 12 inches starting above my head, or below my knees! I would look cool, but they would look like pygmies! 'Not that there's anything wrong' with pygmies! Yes, I do realize that I'm missing something, and EQ'ing is something I'll eventually have to learn, so what I'm asking is: is their a program where I can add each track to it and it (the program) assigns frequencies to each part? So I could see what's being done in real time. And I DO really appreciate the fact that you said I could upload the song on this site eventually, and some people might have the time to make suggestions. Not quite ready for that, since I have a demanding and time consuming daytime job. Thanks again. LNovik
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LENovik
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/05 10:44:25
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And now, as I reread these helpful notes, I see this by dubdiscipline. Use a good analyses like the free SPAN meter by Voxengo to see if your instrumental is fighting your vocals for space. So, I'll look up this item. LNovik
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bdickens
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/05 20:50:05
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You're getting notes and frequencies confused.
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Studioguy1
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Re: Vocals processing
2018/05/06 03:21:17
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Craig Anderton's books (like The Big Book of Sonar Tips) on this daw have really got me through over the years. That is where I would start. Then, the whole gain stage set-up is very important to your final signal (that you are hearing). Many of the Cakewalk vsts are really quite good. Worse come to worse, Boost 11 will bring that signal up to where you can deal with it. Also Cakewalk's own 64 bit vocal strip is a handy little tool with a lot of pre-sets to get your feet wet.
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