Johnbee58
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Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
Hi! Just wondering if CbB requires more CPU resources than the older Sonar X3 Studio that I used to use. I realize that CbB is essentially Sonar Platinum. Reason I ask is that yesterday I tried opening a few older projects that I originally made in X3 Studio. These projects were rather sizeable with about 23 channels, but they were all audio channels using various VSTs for effects. When I opened the first one I heard a loud click sound and when I pushed play, it ran for a few seconds than stopped with an error saying the audio engine failed. I clicked on Help on that message, then as per a suggestion there, went into my interface latency control and increased it 1 tick. I relaunched the project and it was fine after that, but now my latency is a bit wider, which doesn't matter in a mix (and I track every element of the song as separate project, then transfer all MIDI to audio for a final mix project). I also took notice that after I relaunched one of the projects that some of the tracks were marked BUSY for a rather longer period of time than they were when they loaded into X3. I was wondering if perhaps the audio engine may have failed because I tried to play the project before all the tracks were properly loaded. I have done 2 projects in CbB so far but both each have under 10 channels. I have my current set up in my sig. It's core i5 processor. I know it's not the fastest (which explains why I have to record the MIDIs into smaller chunk projects mentioned above), but all I can afford. It would make sense that CbB would use more memory as it is a much bigger program offering much more than X3 did. Thanks!  John B
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Zargg
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 10:36:26
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Hi.
Which drivers do you use, and at what latency?
Could just be a matter of adjusting those settings.
All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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abacab
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 13:15:53
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I doubt that you are running into a low RAM situation, unless you are loading a number of huge sample libraries in your tracks. RAM and CPU resources are two different issues, and latency and drivers are another consideration. Open the Windows Task Manager, switch to performance tab, and observe CPU and Memory resources before and after opening CbB. If you still see wiggle room there after opening your project, your problems likely are elsewhere, like what Zargg suggested regarding drivers and latency. Since you mention that the audio engine is dropping out, that is the most likely problem, unless you are maxing your CPU out. In case it may be a plug-in, you can open the project in "safe mode" to rule that out. From Scott Garrigus, author of the Sonar Power books: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/tip.asp?ID=10 SONAR provides a similar feature (also called Safe Mode) for use when opening project files. Like any computer data, project files can become corrupt occasionally, preventing you from opening them. This corruption can be caused by computer resource limitations or bad DirectX (audio effect), MFX (MIDI effect), or DXi (DirectX Instrument) plug-ins. (I'll talk more about these plug-ins in Chapter 11, "Exploring Effects.") Using Safe Mode, SONAR loads a project file with only the Track view (in its default layout) open. If you had any other open views in the project, they will not open in Safe Mode. You are also prompted for each and every plug-in that you have assigned to your tracks in the project. This feature lets you determine whether a particular plug-in is preventing you from opening your project. Here is how Safe Mode works:
1. When opening a project using one of the methods described earlier, hold down the Shift key on your computer keyboard. This tells SONAR to open the project in Safe Mode and displays the File Open - Safe Mode dialog box.
2. If your project contains any plug-ins assigned to your tracks, the Safe Mode dialog box will ask you whether you want to load the plug-ins. You have four choices: Yes, Yes to All, No, and No to All. Choosing Yes will load the currently displayed plug-in. Choosing No will not load the currently displayed plug-in. Choosing Yes to All will close the dialog box and load all plug-ins. Choosing No to All will close the dialog box and open the project without any plug-ins.
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 13:19:11
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Zargg-I use the drivers that came with my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 interface. The settings seem to be arbitrary numbers and not what you might find in some applications like this (128, 512 etc). When I was using X3 I had them set to 9. Yesterday I bumped them up to 10. This morning I went into those projects again, setting the drivers back down to 9 just to see what would happen and they loaded fine, and faster I might add. I'm wondering if it's a "first time" kind of thing where if the project was never opened in CbB before, perhaps it takes longer for the DAW to load the files on the first time it runs it and is more familiar with the links on all subsequent times. Yesterday, after about 30 seconds after opening the project many of the audio files were still "loading" (Busy). This morning, immediately upon opening the project(s) all audio files were fully loaded and ready to go, and that was less than a minute after I booted up the PC.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 13:29:44
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@abacab-Sorry I didn't acknowledge you above. You must've came in right before I posted. The projects in question did not have any sample libraries loaded. They are full audio projects. I used Safe Mode a few years back when I had several instruments loaded with IK Multimedia Sampletank. The project wouldn't load again after saved. I let it set for more than 10 minutes and nothing. I checked Task Manager and it said that Sonar X3 was "Not Responding", so I opened the project in Safe Mode and copied the MIDI out. I haven't had that kind of problem with any other VSTIs other than IK Multimedia's.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 13:37:12
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abacab
I doubt that you are running into a low RAM situation, unless you are loading a number of huge sample libraries in your tracks. RAM and CPU resources are two different issues, and latency and drivers are another consideration.
Open the Windows Task Manager, switch to performance tab, and observe CPU and Memory resources before and after opening CbB.
If you still see wiggle room there after opening your project, your problems likely are elsewhere, like what Zargg suggested regarding drivers and latency. Since you mention that the audio engine is dropping out, that is the most likely problem, unless you are maxing your CPU out.
In case it may be a plug-in, you can open the project in "safe mode" to rule that out.
From Scott Garrigus, author of the Sonar Power books: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/tip.asp?ID=10
SONAR provides a similar feature (also called Safe Mode) for use when opening project files. Like any computer data, project files can become corrupt occasionally, preventing you from opening them. This corruption can be caused by computer resource limitations or bad DirectX (audio effect), MFX (MIDI effect), or DXi (DirectX Instrument) plug-ins. (I'll talk more about these plug-ins in Chapter 11, "Exploring Effects.") Using Safe Mode, SONAR loads a project file with only the Track view (in its default layout) open. If you had any other open views in the project, they will not open in Safe Mode. You are also prompted for each and every plug-in that you have assigned to your tracks in the project. This feature lets you determine whether a particular plug-in is preventing you from opening your project. Here is how Safe Mode works:
1. When opening a project using one of the methods described earlier, hold down the Shift key on your computer keyboard. This tells SONAR to open the project in Safe Mode and displays the File Open - Safe Mode dialog box.
2. If your project contains any plug-ins assigned to your tracks, the Safe Mode dialog box will ask you whether you want to load the plug-ins. You have four choices: Yes, Yes to All, No, and No to All. Choosing Yes will load the currently displayed plug-in. Choosing No will not load the currently displayed plug-in. Choosing Yes to All will close the dialog box and load all plug-ins. Choosing No to All will close the dialog box and open the project without any plug-ins.
This is interesting and educational (for me). I always thought that the driver/latency issue had to do with CPU resources, but you say not. So even if I had a Core i7, or perhaps even a Sweetwater Creation Station I would still have to use a high buffer (creating some degree of latency) to avoid crashing the system?
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 14:37:37
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To answer the original question and thread title, no. Any CPU usage differences between X3 and CbB should be negligible.
More likely, the slowdown is due to something external to the DAW and the audio interface. I have experienced the same phenomenon in the past - a pop at the start of playback, followed by a dropout. I had spent a lot of time trying to find the source of the problem when suddenly on a Tuesday the problem disappeared. What's special about Tuesday? That's usually when Windows updates get pushed out.
Given that your project is all audio and your latency is set fairly high, that suggests it could be an I/O problem. The disk drive, network card or USB port was busy doing something intense when you started playback. It's not possible to say exactly what that something was, but it was probably some internal file system or virtual memory housekeeping. (Worst-case is it could be some malware calling the mothership, but if that were the case I'd expect the symptom to be fairly consistent.)
Usually, all you have to do is wait a minute or two and then all's well again.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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abacab
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 15:30:05
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Johnbee58
This is interesting and educational (for me). I always thought that the driver/latency issue had to do with CPU resources, but you say not. So even if I had a Core i7, or perhaps even a Sweetwater Creation Station I would still have to use a high buffer (creating some degree of latency) to avoid crashing the system?
So yes, even if you have a high end Core i7, you can still experience audio dropouts, because they can be caused by audio buffer underruns. No amount of CPU power can overcome some process locking up the CPU with a Deferred Procedure Call (DPC Latency), for long enough to cause an audio buffer loss. When the CPU is in such a state, it cannot service the audio buffer in a real-time manner. This has no effect on offline processing, like audio mixdowns, or video transcoding, but can have a drastic effect on real-time audio. As bitflipper stated, there can be any number of things running in the background that can cause conflicts, and it is not always obvious. So the best place to start is to weed out your Windows startup programs and services, and ensure you are still optimized for audio. Even MS updates can sometimes change things you had set back to defaults. Have you tried the Resplendence LatencyMon tool? http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon It can check if your system is configured optimally for real-time audio and can provide clues for further investigation. LatencyMon analyzes the possible causes of buffer underruns by measuring kernel timer latencies and reporting DPC and ISR excecution times as well as hard pagefaults. It will provide a comprehensible report and find the kernel modules and processes responsible for causing audio latencies which result in drop outs.]/quote]
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 19:24:52
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Looks handy. Does it advise you what to shut down and how to shut it down? JB
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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bitflipper
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 20:06:11
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Johnbee58
Looks handy. Does it advise you what to shut down and how to shut it down?
Not directly. You still have to do some sleuthing on your own, but there are great tips on the website for tracking down the offending processes.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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abacab
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/05/31 20:50:05
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DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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mudgel
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/06/01 04:17:17
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2018/06/01 10:19:15
To the OP. I wonder; from what you said are you using ASIO or WDM drivers? I suspects WDM. Try ASIO then you’ll get the usual sample figures like 128, 256, 512 etc.
As a very general rule, use lower rates for recording if monitoring through Sonar and higher rates when mixing. That’s fairly general practice. All the best.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/06/01 09:32:12
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mudgel
To the OP. I wonder; from what you said are you using ASIO or WDM drivers? I suspects WDM. Try ASIO then you’ll get the usual sample figures like 128, 256, 512 etc.
As a very general rule, use lower rates for recording if monitoring through Sonar and higher rates when mixing. That’s fairly general practice. All the best.
Is it possible to choose when they're the drivers for the interface? JB
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Zargg
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/06/01 10:21:05
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Johnbee58
mudgel
To the OP. I wonder; from what you said are you using ASIO or WDM drivers? I suspects WDM. Try ASIO then you’ll get the usual sample figures like 128, 256, 512 etc.
As a very general rule, use lower rates for recording if monitoring through Sonar and higher rates when mixing. That’s fairly general practice. All the best.
Is it possible to choose when they're the drivers for the interface?
JB
The ASIO drivers are the drivers that came with your 6i6. Try switching over. I would guess that is your issue.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Johnbee58
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Re: Does CbB Use More Computer RAM Than Sonar X3 Studio?
2018/06/01 20:15:17
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Zargg
The ASIO drivers are the drivers that came with your 6i6.
Try switching over.
I would guess that is your issue.
Zargg, buddy I AM using the ASIO drivers that came with the 6i6. I can either access them through the DAW in Preferences or through what's called the Scarlett Mix Control (in fact, the Scarlett Mix Control is what come up inside the DAW in Preferences). They both give the same choice when it comes to numbers (1,2,3,4 etc as opposed to 128, 512 etc), but I know they are ASIO. Definitely not WDM. JB
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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