Helpful ReplyOutput channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab

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Mad_Musicologist
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2018/06/10 11:05:55 (permalink)

Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab

Hi there.
Using amongst oothers the Aria Player (as FSZ player for sampled sounds).
So I have several channels for the sampled instruments, and they should go each to another output in the aria players folder.
But whatever I do, all track outputs go to the one and only aria output channel.
With this constellation I cannot work, since I wish to add effects to each output independently.
I had prepared a screenshot but fail to insert it here.
Please, what can I do?
post edited by Mad_Musicologist - 2018/06/10 16:55:00
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michael diemer
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/10 18:06:22 (permalink)
I don't know how many instruments you have in Aria, but one way around this is to use one instance of Aria for each inst. Very simple. Of course, if you have 16 insts. or more, you're going to have a lot of Arias. Which may or may not be a problem, depending on your setup. What I do is to use one or two instances of Aria (Play, Kontakt etc). I use the Pro Channel to adjust reverb on each inst, before they all get sent to Spaces Reverb. You can do the same with the EQ in Pro Channel. This way you can avoid the problems with multiple channels, which can be an issue with Aria, judging from other threads I've seen here.

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mettelus
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/10 19:58:34 (permalink)
Best way to do this (with any VSTi) is from the insert synth dialog and choosing all outputs mono/stereo. You can also add audio tracks and change inputs to ARIA, but I forget how intuitive that is offhand.

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Mad_Musicologist
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/10 20:40:13 (permalink)
Thankx for your answers. 
@michael Diemer: Each instance of Aria player would create 16 tracks for one instrument folder, I'd have to delete 15 of them and I'd have to be careful which channel to retain. My RAM is at 16GB, I never tried out before if 11 instances of Aria Players (plus additional other synths) would be overload. Sorry, doesn't seem to be a practicable solution - and in earlier times I didn't have that issue.
@mettelus: What you describe is the default insert dialogue. I just checked it and found there was all as you described. I could crosscheck in ProTools what happens there, just to find out if this is a new issue pertaining exclusively to Cakewalk Sonar.
But to solve the thing here it seems I have to export each instrument track as audio file, open a new session consisting only of those exported files, so I could apply my audio-fx there. Since I have a tempo change in thie project, I'd have most simply saving the old project under a new name, and replace any MIDI- or instrument track by audio files before importing the audio files from my first project to the new one. - But hey, I didn't have to do this in earlier times.
BTW what's up about uploading screenshots here: This always used to work. One picture tells you more than my descriptions. I click on "attach images" and get 2 possible ways: 1) entering a link to the picture in some cloud, 2) "from gallery / upload", but selecting the 2nd option should promt the windows explorer to open so I could pivk the image file from my PC - but that does not happen.
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michael diemer
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/11 03:54:31 (permalink)
No, you just specify one output when setting up the synth. I think it's "first synth output" that you need to choose. Then each synth only has one output. 
 
Still, I agree it's not a very practical solution. With 16GB of Ram, this gave me trouble too. I now have 32GB but I have in any case chosen the method I described above.

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Mad_Musicologist
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/11 16:43:17 (permalink)
Let's see what will happen next: A new update of Cakewalk by Bandlab is available now, I'll check after installation.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
No changes.
I've been placing the same issue at "Make music", there I could also upload my screenshot.

 
New, June 12th, 09:00 p.m.CEST, having had the latest Windows update:
No changes.
But the people from "Make Music" had replied, 
"Thanks for contacting MakeMusic Customer Success. I will try to provide as much help as I can here but this may be outside of the scope of support that I can provide. The routing into VST instruments is going to be based off of the host program and not the plug-in. So, it may be best to also consult with Cakewalks documentation too for more information. 
Your ARIA Player and engine are the most up to date so there is nothing to worry about there. Typically in a host DAW, you would have MIDI channels that route to the separate channels in the Multi ARIA Player plug-in. The plug-in itself then gets routed to the outputs of the DAW. I can't say for certain if this is how Cakewalk works but I would guess that it is similar. " 
So is there anyone over there to please give me a hint how to solve this?
Thankx.
post edited by Mad_Musicologist - 2018/06/12 19:06:22
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ESharpe
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/12 23:27:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby karhide 2018/06/13 06:20:50
I am not at my Sonar computer right now so this is from memory.
 
  • Load an ARIA player (AP) and select the 16 Stereo Out and all outputs.
  • This will load an empty AP  and crate 16 stereo tracks.
  • Now in AP you have  16 slots for instruments. 
  • One of the little numbers on the slot indicates what output the slot is routed to.
  • ALL empty slots are always routed to the first output.
  • load an instrument into one of the slots 
  • I believe you have to right click on the small number that is under the instrument name on the right side (this from memory) 
  • This will give you a drop down list to select which output to route the instrument to. 
  • Select the one you want and you are all set. 
  • Note:  You can set this until AFTER you load the instrument into the slot.
 
I hope this has helped.  I double check later tonight. 
 
Ed
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/12 23:29:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby karhide 2018/06/13 06:20:54
Ok. 
The first Stereo out put is 1/2
The second is 3/4
the third is 5/6
...
the sixteenth is 31/32
 
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/14 05:39:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/06/14 23:48:41
Mad_Musicologist,

I would recommend making a track template for the Aria Player with 16 stereo outs.
That way, any time you want to work with it, all the hassle will be taken out of the way for you.

Step One


Step Two




Of course now you'll have to create tracks with midi data and
send each midi track to a different midi channel within Aria.

And if you don't want all the 16 audio outs going to the master bus,
you'll have to change them all.

Just select them all, and hold down CTRL while changing the bus, like so.


 
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Mad_Musicologist
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/14 19:56:20 (permalink)
This looks fine, I will check. Thankx!
I will tell you if it works.
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/14 23:43:54 (permalink)
The track template is sage advice (Daibhidh posted above). Although you can get all of the outs to show, you need to manually insert the other 15 MIDI channels and assign them (if you want all 16 to record in separate editable, MIDI tracks).
 
Mad_Musicologist
 
But to solve the thing here it seems I have to export each instrument track as audio file, open a new session consisting only of those exported files, so I could apply my audio-fx there.



I caught your earlier post on the fly, and this part seems unaddressed, but I understand better what you are saying now. When Aux tracks/patch points were introduced, you can now use those and record a synth's audio track output into a wav file. This feature will make a cwp not backwards compatible to before they were introduced (more an FYI), but is very handy to capture the audio track to allow you to manipulate it as you would a "normal" wav file (avoiding the export/import cycle you mentioned).
 
Some quick references on this are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAlFThGvH8
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Mixing.14.html
 
 

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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 17:16:16 (permalink)
Daibhidh
Mad_Musicologist,

I would recommend making a track template for the Aria Player with 16 stereo outs.
That way, any time you want to work with it, all the hassle will be taken out of the way for you.

Step One


Sorry, first question: What kind of a project? Can I start with "empty", or with 16 MIDI tracks?
Daibhidh
Step Two


This is the standard dialogue, it seems. At least, when I proceed, I get the same box.
Daibhidh
Of course now you'll have to create tracks with midi data and
send each midi track to a different midi channel within Aria.
That's why I was asking about the 16 MIDI tracks from the start of the project.
Daibhidh
And if you don't want all the 16 audio outs going to the master bus,
you'll have to change them all.

Just select them all, and hold down CTRL while changing the bus, like so.


I am missing something here: I selected all the 16 Aria Player tracks, press CRTL, but my dialogue looks very different from what you are showing me. Again, I keep having trouble to insert an image that I did not post anywhere else. That used to work some months ago - ?
Mine shows "Master", "Metronome", and "preview", no "keyboards". 
Above that, I have the list with all MIDI tracks, and for MIDi Track 2 it says "Aria Player (Multi) 1 Out3/out4: stereo.
So I'd expect the sounds triggered by MIDI track2 (with all notes being MIDI channel 2, of course) to come out at "Aria Player (Multi) 1 Out3/out4: stereo. In fact however, they come out at "Aria Player (Multi) 1 Out1/out2: stereo.
This is the status I had when placing my question here. 
Am I missing some tiny detail, please?
 
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scook
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 17:37:44 (permalink)
In that image "Keyboards" is a bus that has already been created. This is not created by default. The other three Master, Metronome and Preview are part of most of the included project templates. To route all the selected track outputs to a bus that does not exist use the "New Stereo Bus" option.
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 20:08:22 (permalink)
Thankx, "scook",
It is my intention to route
the MIDI from track 1 to Aria stereo output 1,
the MIDI from track 2 to Aria stereo output 2,
the MIDI from track 3 to Aria stereo output 3,
and so on.
Currently I do not get this:
MIDI 1 goes to Aria stereo output 1,
MIDI 2 goes to Aria stereo output 1,
MIDI 3 goes to Aria stereo output 1, and so on.
Do I have to create for each MIDI track a new bus then?
This, I thought, was the thing that happens inside the Aria player. 
Apparently wrong?
I will have to try this out...
 
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scook
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 20:25:40 (permalink)
Since all the audio is on the first stereo output, the audio routing needs to change inside the plug-in.
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 20:56:54 (permalink)
Thanks, "scook", 
the other friends here seem to suggest that I can handle that routing from outside the Aria player, and this is also what the people from "Make Music" say (I quoted that passage yesterday), so I am a bit confused. 
Honest, when going through the Aria players surface, I do not find any place where I could route the audios from one channel (MIDI in) to a specific Aria output channel.
What am I constantly misunderstanding, please? 
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 21:09:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/06/15 22:30:03
Have you actually chosen the outputs correctly on the Aria Player itself? there is a place to do that for each instrument. (Sorry, I am also picture-insert challenged so I can't give you the nice diagram with arrows and such).  Look on the Aria Player and set them the way you want. Under each inst. slot, there are a number of light grey settings. The second to last one is for outputs. They are all 1/2 by default. but you can change them to what you want. You may have already done this so forgive me if that is the case. But sometimes a simple thing like this can be missed.

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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 21:16:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mad_Musicologist 2018/06/16 04:07:57
Mad_Musicologist
What am I constantly misunderstanding, please?

Routing happens before, inside and after the plug-in.
 
Before the plug-in MIDI data feeds the plug-in input. MIDI data carries channel information. Multi-timbral synths pay attention to the channel information and route incoming MIDI data based on it. The MIDI data may be from one or more MIDI tracks in the DAW. A MIDI track can send data on one or more MIDI channels.
 
As the MIDI data is processed by the plug-in, multi-timbral synths use channel information to route the rest of the MIDI data to the appropriate instrument based on assignments made in the plug-in. The plug-in interprets the MIDI data, generates audio and in the case of synths with multiple outputs make the audio available on the outputs as defined in the plug-in.
 
After the plug-in, the DAW listens for synth audio output based on the input assignments made on the DAW audio tracks.
 
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mettelus
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/15 22:25:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mad_Musicologist 2018/06/16 04:07:35
[To add what Michael referred to above...] I see what you mean now, and just checked. Even loading "ARIA Player (multi)," the player itself comes up with all channels going out 1/2. They are in the red boxes shown below. The default MIDI inputs are in the yellow boxes (these are correct, but you would need to insert MIDI tracks if you want one/channel). Your issue is inside the player itself, and as far as I can see, they need to be manually adjusted.
 
 
No audio gets to the other outputs until those are changed (they all go out the first stereo pair).

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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/16 02:05:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mad_Musicologist 2018/06/16 04:07:31
mettelus
[To add what Michael referred to above...] I see what you mean now, and just checked. Even loading "ARIA Player (multi)," the player itself comes up with all channels going out 1/2. They are in the red boxes shown below. The default MIDI inputs are in the yellow boxes (these are correct, but you would need to insert MIDI tracks if you want one/channel). Your issue is inside the player itself, and as far as I can see, they need to be manually adjusted.
 
 
No audio gets to the other outputs until those are changed (they all go out the first stereo pair).




As long as the instrument slot is EMPTY the output will be routed to 1/2.  You can not change that.  
Once you have placed an instrument in the slot you can set the output to the channel you want.
 
NOTE: If I remember correctly  the interface will let you set the  output of an empty slot to something other than 1/2 but as soon as you close the ARIA player will revert back to 1/2.  
 
Ed
 
 
 
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Mad_Musicologist
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/16 04:07:25 (permalink)
Yay! Thankx to all helping answerers! 
How could I oversee that - !?!?
That is what I wanted, and it works. 
Yippieyayey!
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/06/16 14:27:09 (permalink)
Sorry we jumped down the wrong rabbit hole at first on you.
 
A couple quick notes with this situation which can save you some future work -
 
1) The outputs inside of ARIA will revert if you load an Ensemble, but they will stick if you just replace instruments of an already loaded Ensemble. After you set those to all 16 stereo channels, save the Ensemble (left click in the Ensemble name area) inside of ARIA itself. You will want to repeat this if you swap instruments around and may use that Ensemble again in another project.
 
2) After you have done all of the work for an Ensemble and routed it inside CbB, be sure to save that as a track template (and verify it inserts properly). This was mentioned earlier in the thread, but you will want to save that track template with ARIA configured properly as well so that inserting the track template comes up "fully functional."

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Mad_Musicologist
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Re: Output channel question with Aria Player (Multi) in Sonar by BandLab 2018/07/06 18:32:44 (permalink)
There is a last remark to this, but it seems a very important detail.
In the Aria Player (Mixer page), you NEED to turn all the sends down to ZERO. Otherwise an instrument that is e.g.  routed to output 5 / ouput 6 (stereo) will also come out at output 1 / output 2 (stereo), so if you apply some fx to out 1 / 2, it will also affect the instrument that you routed to out 5 / out 6. No busses you use in Cakewalk itself will help. I tried that first. 
You will only have a clear mix if you turn ALL sends in Aria Player (Mixer page) to zero. (The sends you are using in Cakewalk will not be affected by this, I also checked that setting.)
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