Need an advise about mics.

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azslow3
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2018/07/17 21:18:24 (permalink)

Need an advise about mics.

As a home player, I have used only cheap dynamic and large diaphragm condenser. I guess people here have experience with other.
 
I try to build more or less functioning internet conference system. And I have not seen even half way acceptable solutions. The only usable devices I could observe was from Polycom, with one extender per table. And custom build systems with personal mics.
 
What I want is sound pickup from the whole room. For the moment ~6x8m but next project is for ~8x15. The is not for music. It just has to pick the speech with constant level on output.
 
I currently test 2x large diaphragm condensers throw DM for gate, EQ and compression. The result is almost satisfactory, remote end get acceptable signal from any position in the room.
 
But there is one aspect I want to improve: the upper part of the room is almost covered by metal tubes, the room was constructed as a labor... Not only that horribly resonate and produce echo, the cooling system is super noisy (air moving throw uncovered metal tubes), especially at warm days.
The mics I use (at the moment not covered at all) take all sounds, including the noise, corridor, steps. So I am thinking about a possibility to limit the direction and/or distance.
 
I will appreciate any advise. May be another mic type, may be some kind of caves for existing. Modifying the room (I mean cover tubes and beton walls)  unfortunately is not an option.

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#1

24 Replies Related Threads

    mettelus
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/17 23:26:33 (permalink)
    Polar pattern is what cheaper large diaphragm microphones lack. Using the existing microphones, you can try alleviating some of the reflections by mounting the microphone fairly high on the wall (about 2/3 up from the floor) with the logo pointed downward toward the far corner. This will maximize the reflection length to what is coming into the front of the condenser so that a gate could hopefully shave off (most of) the rest. The back of the condenser is the bigger challenge, and would need some sort of shielding to attenuate the shorter reflections hitting the wall behind it. For most phone systems, the microphones drastically attenuate anything that is not in a 300Hz-3.4KHz band, so doubling or even tripling the EQ to shelf off everything outside that range may also help with reverb (if a gate is not adequate). The biggest hurdle is to shield the back of the microphones. I am pretty sure that PolyCom's expansion microphone are condenser, but the housing is rigid plastic, so the primary sound entry is through the front vents on them. Something similar might work, but I cannot think of something simple offhand (something rigid with a foam spacer mounted on the back side of the microphone).

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    #2
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 07:01:16 (permalink)
    Thank you for the reply. I will try high positioning mics.
    Which polar pattern would you recommend for my scenario? I am using cheapest mics just to check the concept is working in general.
     
     

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    #3
    fwrend
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 11:05:32 (permalink)
    You might try a dynamic mic.  I have been very pleased with my purchase of the Heil PR 30B Large-Diaphragm Dynamic for my church choir.  Very reasonably priced ($249), good gain before feedback, coverage, and rejection.  Use code SUMMER18 for 15% off.
     
    Is seating around a table or lecture style?

    Wren 

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    #4
    dwardzala
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 11:46:39 (permalink)
    Is everyone sitting at a table or is this an open room with just chairs?  If everyone is sitting at a table, you might try boundary microphones.  They are designed to pick up the sound hitting the surface and are common in conference type settings.  For the smaller room you might need 2 or 3.  For the larger room you will need more depending on the size/layout of your table.
     
    Also, I believe the Polycon type systems use boundary mics.

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    #5
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 12:38:28 (permalink)
    fwrend
    You might try a dynamic mic.  I have been very pleased with my purchase of the Heil PR 30B Large-Diaphragm Dynamic for my church choir.

    I guess the choir produce more loud and consistent sound. Does that mic has reasonable output from a single person speaking normally from 3-5 meters?
     

      Very reasonably priced ($249), good gain before feedback, coverage, and rejection.  Use code SUMMER18 for 15% off.

    I am in EU... PR30 is €350 here. The price by itself is ok, but (since not private) ordering is complicated and returning is almost impossible. I will have to find a place to test it first, the nearest store does not have it. Otherwise, if I have success in the first room, I think I can waste some money testing equipment for the second...
     

    Is seating around a table or lecture style?

    People re-organize tables. Normally that is lecture style, 10-40 persons. But sometimes they make a round table from the first 1-2 rows, for 10-15 persons. The same in the second room, just 1.5 - 3 time more people. But the second room is acoustically "normal", with usual office plastic ceiling and no constant noise.
     
    Fortunately, the sound quality does not really matter. And current system seems like does the job even in case the person has turned his head 180° away from the mic (I plan to make real test next week, so far all tests was with 2 persons in the room changing positions and one another on remote end). If I can manage to limit vertical angle to ~20-30°  (exclude the floor and ceiling) and/or horizontal angle to 45-60° (exclude the biggest noise generating corner), it will be almost perfect (for the purpose). 

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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 12:49:56 (permalink)
    If the room was less problematic, the simple solution would be a LDC with "omni" polar pattern.  (Boundary mic would be similar)
     
    Since the room itself is full of reflections and negatively affects the sound, you don't want to capture the "room as a whole". 
     
    Given your circumstances, I'd look toward what radio stations use when dealing with multiple individuals in a room.
    RE-20, RE-320 (modern take), and SM7b are very popular for this purpose.
    All are large diaphragm Dynamic microphones... and will capture less of the room.
    The RE-20/RE-320 are popular because they're extremely rugged... and don't color the sound a lot if the source is off-axis.  If you want to capture as little of the room as possible, go with the SM7b.
     
    Many folks (in less than ideal home studios) use the SM7b precisely because it doesn't capture much of the room.
     
    All three mics are useful for many recording tasks (vocals, kick, guitar/bass cab, etc).

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
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    #7
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 15:34:58 (permalink)
    So I see that large diaphragm Dynamic is not only a guess but also the industrial approach for my case. And I see SM7B in the local store. RE-320 is in another authorized store (RE-20 is 2 times more expensive). I have also found PR31 and PR40 in authorized store. In case my test setup is accepted, I will order something from that list.
     
    Also thanks for mentioning boundary mics, I have completely overseen they exist (mentioned in "Instrument mics" section). They are less attracting me at the moment. It seems like, as with Policom, they are good when the table configuration is fixes as round/C-like, there is a possibility for cabling in the middle  and the number of tables is not large. Also I am not sure how good that works with speakers near/inside ceiling, so effectively pointing toward the table surface. But I can give Beta 91A a try on yet another location.
     
    Thanks! I knew I can learn a lot there
     
    BTW the controlling part of the test setup:

    * I have mentioned "Not a Mouse" controller in Sonar forum, but there is no interest (I use it as cheapest and smallest remote controller for REAPER). In this configuration it is switching microphones (will be wireless mouse laying on the first table...). But the next setup will use IR/RF remote to the display (loosing PC dependency, much longer remote battery life).
    * The display is self made from ESP8266 and MAX7219. Electronic part was connecting 5 wires, no soldering required. Communicates with the mixer (XAir) throw WiFi/OSC. LEDs are well readable from 5-10m, getting attraction by "scroll" animation on mode change. I have compared the result with a dedicated small LCD monitor and personally have found that solution better (especially in this self cut wooden box). Such display cost ~$10, use USB for the power (and initial programming) and can work with any OSC capable devices/software (X-Air mixers, RME Totalmix, REAPER, Sonar with AZ Controller) after several lines code modification (words to display and OSC addresses to use). 
     

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    #8
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 15:56:18 (permalink)
    The RE-320 is similar to the RE-20... but uses a Neodymium magnet (hotter output than the RE-20) and has an upper-mid presence boost. 
     
    The SM7b was used for the vocals on MJ's Thriller.  

    Best Regards,

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    #9
    mettelus
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 16:07:00 (permalink)
    Dynamic mics are great for noise reduction, but that also includes the front. When you say "constant level" from a room, you can literally scream into a dynamic and not peg it at 1m, so at 3-4m things can easily drop off the radar.

    As far as polar pattern on a condenser, cardioid is the most common that will give you the least grief from sound entering the back (non-emblem) side.

    http://www.akglife.com/po...irectional--technology

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    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 17:21:21 (permalink)
    mettelus
    Dynamic mics are great for noise reduction, but that also includes the front. When you say "constant level" from a room, you can literally scream into a dynamic and not peg it at 1m, so at 3-4m things can easily drop off the radar.

    That was my theoretical deduction from the experience with "normal" cheap/mid priced dynamic mics.
     
    But I guess Wren's choir is unlikely within 1m from the mic. And I interpret Jim's proposal as not giving every person in the room personal SM7b, more like covering some area (not the whole room, but also not 20cm) with it.
     
    Both systems already have 3 personal (dynamic) mics, one wireless for the talking person, another wireless for questions and additional wired for the convener. The problematic is discussion part, when several persons say something, sometimes in parallel sometimes as a dialog.
     
    * Moving the mic every time does not work (and also dangerous not only for people but also for mics... we have glued them several times already, after "hot" discussions  ).
    * one directional mic per person and activation buttons (we have such system at one location, with ~50 mics) require fixed tables position and still does not work well during discussions (people forget to press the button or turn away from the mic)
    * Policom with 2-5 satellites works ok, but again require fixed tables, inform remote end about "typing" on any notebook near the satellite  and  when someone turns a bit or sit in the "second row", the game is over.
    * in addition I have observed several commercially installed custom systems which do not work at all (including one with mics positioned 1m in front of large speakers LOL)
     
    The result: at least a half of any discussion is not audible remotely, introducing major inconvenience and misunderstanding (taking into account international nature of participants, including people which barely speak/understand English).
     
    It seems like this area has big gaps between pro-audio scene like Radio/TV, where the quality has priority over money and required personal,  commercial "high level" conversations with just several participants in dedicated specially prepared rooms  and Teamspeak/Skype like systems to call parents and play on-line games.
     
    And so I have decided to re-invent the wheel using music equipment, with a possibility to connect several types of mics and shape the signal with EQ/Comp.  So construct mid-priced system specially for our purpose.
    F.e. rack mixer without physical controls is a life saver since "participants" tend to turn/push everything they can when something does not work as they expect (obviously without any idea about consequences).
    Fixed mics on the wall/ceiling are also important. If something is laying on the table, people will sit on it and put coffee inside it. And for sure it will be on the floor when tables are moved. 
    That sound unbelievable assuming all participants have (or moving toward) Dr. / Prof. prefix in there names, but that is reality...
     

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    #11
    wst3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/18 18:19:18 (permalink)
    If you are trying to build a conferencing system then you probably want several microphones, and a DSP that includes "Acoustic Echo Cancellation". Microphones from A-T, Shure, Clock Audio, and others are all usable, polar pattern will depend on the room and the placement of the microphones in the room. Polycom makes a ceiling microphone that works really well, especially in spaces that are not properly treated. And if you have the budget Shure has a ceiling microphone that is steerable - incredibly cool, but not for the budget conscious.

    For DSP you should probably consider Polycom SoundStructure, QSC Qsys, Biamp Tesira, and BSS Blu, not in that  order. My current favorite for straight conferencing is the Polycom (although I really wish they'd add AES-67 or even Dante as an input), and Qsys for more complex projects.

    You can find used Biamp Audia processors on eBay for very little money. If budget is a concern (and when isn't it?) that is a very good solution. While they are discontinued, we built the AV system for an entire convention center using Audia. It was really pretty cool!

    Hope this helps!

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    #12
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 09:26:03 (permalink)
    That sounds interesting, but I have failed to find any prices for MXA... which usually means they are outside the budget
    The communication platform is in fact fixed: https://www.vidyo.com/ . They have forced and not tunable processing.
     
    I understand there are top hardware solutions. But I do not think colleagues will understand me in case one end point will cost more then $1-3k (total). Usual connections are just with headsets, Logitech usb mics or ~$500 Policom points. People here would like to have something a bit better, but they do not immediately ready spend 20x more for that. I have also mentioned bad constructed systems (~$5k), I mean there is in general no confidence the money are not for nothing. Over $10k is definitively no go, even in case it works for sure.

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    Starise
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 15:08:44 (permalink)
    Have you considered lapel mics? A decent lapel mic with either a built in gate or gated in software should allow everyone to be heard. I'm not sure how loud the sounds in the room are or the dimensions of the room. This could all affect the outcome. In most situations lapels work well. Some wireless lapel mics share a common channel so you might not need to mix multiple channels.

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    #14
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 16:02:36 (permalink)
    Starise
    Have you considered lapel mics? A decent lapel mic with either a built in gate or gated in software should allow everyone to be heard. I'm not sure how loud the sounds in the room are or the dimensions of the room. This could all affect the outcome. In most situations lapels work well. Some wireless lapel mics share a common channel so you might not need to mix multiple channels.

    I am not sure I understand you right. Are you writing about wireless personal Lavalier mics?
    We already use such for the speaker (the room size, the number of persons and current devices in use I have already mentioned before).
    But how that can be applied to a room with 10-30 persons inside?
    I have mentioned that ~50 stationary mics more or less work at one place. But not for rooms I try to equip now.

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    wst3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 17:15:39 (permalink)
    azslow3
    That sounds interesting, but I have failed to find any prices for MXA... which usually means they are outside the budget

     
    I believe the MXA line of microphones is only available through distribution, you'd need to contact a local integrator to purchase. And yeah, they are probably beyond your budget, among other things the use Dante or AES67 for audio, so you'd need a DSP that speaks Dante or AES67, or you'd need D/A converters.
     
    azslow3The communication platform is in fact fixed: https://www.vidyo.com/ . They have forced and not tunable processing.

    My condolences - I spent three years supporting their VTC solution, and it was a nightmare. I think they have a great idea (somewhere between soft codec and codec) but their implementation was anything but stable and reliable. Good luck!

    -- Bill
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    Starise
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 18:10:52 (permalink)
    azslow3
    Starise
    Have you considered lapel mics? A decent lapel mic with either a built in gate or gated in software should allow everyone to be heard. I'm not sure how loud the sounds in the room are or the dimensions of the room. This could all affect the outcome. In most situations lapels work well. Some wireless lapel mics share a common channel so you might not need to mix multiple channels.

    I am not sure I understand you right. Are you writing about wireless personal Lavalier mics?
    We already use such for the speaker (the room size, the number of persons and current devices in use I have already mentioned before).
    But how that can be applied to a room with 10-30 persons inside?
    I have mentioned that ~50 stationary mics more or less work at one place. But not for rooms I try to equip now.


    Yes, what you call lavalier mics. 10 to 15 people might be possible. 30 would begin to require a lot more and make things complicated. Not impossible just more complicated. The reason I mention this type of mic is they usually have a built in squelch/gate circuit and if you notice these are used with perimeter mics a lot in television broadcast interview situations because they are good at rejecting the wrong sounds you don't want to hear. Also used frequently in drama stage acts so you don't pick up the person coughing from the stage. Another advantage is the user can get up and walk around to a display board and you won't lose their audio.
    As you may know there are different grades of these mics, some work better than others. Unless I misunderstand multiple people want to speak in a group meeting.  If it works for one speaker, why not for everyone else since they are all speaking at one time or another? The main issues here being to make sure there is no interference with adjacent frequencies.
    Another option would be PTT mics.
     

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    #17
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 19:10:02 (permalink)
    wst3
    azslow3The communication platform is in fact fixed: https://www.vidyo.com/ . They have forced and not tunable processing.

    My condolences - I spent three years supporting their VTC solution, and it was a nightmare. I think they have a great idea (somewhere between soft codec and codec) but their implementation was anything but stable and reliable. Good luck!

    That is nothing I can change... They have found the "back door" to https://home.cern/ and have replaced previous (telephone only, but working well) provider. First 2 years many meetings was just cancelled... But they have improved with time, no more "funny meetings" (like 50 people connected to the same conference ID was in 2 different rooms... someone had to connect multiple times from different computers to join both rooms and "bridge" the audio :) ).
     
    Thanks to the "agreement" with MS, all software should be compiled also for Windows (which make no sense). Thanks to Vidyo we do not use anything else for conferences
     
    Starise

    I am not sure I understand you right. Are you writing about wireless personal Lavalier mics?
    We already use such for the speaker (the room size, the number of persons and current devices in use I have already mentioned before).
    But how that can be applied to a room with 10-30 persons inside?
    I have mentioned that ~50 stationary mics more or less work at one place. But not for rooms I try to equip now.

    Yes, what you call lavalier mics. 10 to 15 people might be possible. 30 would begin to require a lot more and make things complicated. Not impossible just more complicated.

    The one for the speaker is already one more then I would prefer... May be you have not seen what people can do with mics if they have a possibility to touch them 
     

      Another advantage is the user can get up and walk around to a display board and you won't lose their audio.

    That is the target of my new system! But without giving the person any mic... And as I have written at the beginning, that is working. Just not perfect.
     

    If it works for one speaker, why not for everyone else since they are all speaking at one time or another? The main issues here being to make sure there is no interference with adjacent frequencies.

    Apart from probably replacing at least one cable per day... Accu in half of them will be empty at the beginning of every day. For 2x wireless mics we use 4x sets of accus + batteries laying around, just in case. And still there are times when there is one working mic only, the one which is wired.
     

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    #18
    Starise
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/19 19:23:38 (permalink)
    OK azlsow I tried. My advice was free and maybe that's how much it's worth to you. You know what doesn't work. Now maybe you can narrow what might work.
    There are only so many different kinds of mics and ways to mic people. We have covered most of them here and none of them will seem to work. What now?
    I mentioned PTT mics. These only work when you push a button. All mics either have cables or batteries. No getting away from that one.
    I wonder if the space could be changed..seems like a very bad place to hold a long distance video conference
    I don't know all of the fine details. I do know this-
    A. There is noise in the space
    B. You don't like people touching mics
    C. The space is smallish for a larger number of people
    D. There is no magic wand
     
    The outside noise can only be tamed with polar pattern, mic design, less noise, gates, or a combination of those.
     
     
    I use mics all the time both in the studio and in live performance so yes, I know what happens when people touch mics.
     

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    #19
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/20 07:13:03 (permalink)
    Starise
    OK azlsow I tried. My advice was free and maybe that's how much it's worth to you. You know what doesn't work. Now maybe you can narrow what might work.
    There are only so many different kinds of mics and ways to mic people. We have covered most of them here and none of them will seem to work. What now?
    I mentioned PTT mics. These only work when you push a button. All mics either have cables or batteries. No getting away from that one.
    I wonder if the space could be changed..seems like a very bad place to hold a long distance video conference
    I don't know all of the fine details. I do know this-
    A. There is noise in the space
    B. You don't like people touching mics
    C. The space is smallish for a larger number of people
    D. There is no magic wand
     
    The outside noise can only be tamed with polar pattern, mic design, less noise, gates, or a combination of those.

    There are several interesting approaches in this thread. And am going to try them.
    Your proposals also make perfect sense, we already use lapel and PTT mics with success. I have just mentioned the reasons why I think that is not scalable for my current wishes.
    You are right, all mics either have cables or batteries. But that is why I want to cover the room (complete or as in some proposals just small areas). That approach use wired mics without fixing them on the table nor on people.
     

    I use mics all the time both in the studio and in live performance so yes, I know what happens when people touch mics.

    I hope in the studio and on stage people do not do the following:
    * using a mic like a peak, so pointing it away from himself; attempting to lay down round mic on table (so it rolls and at some point fall); forgetting they have mic in the hand (with all possible consequences)
    * continuously grab lapel mic; refusing to attach it and its transceiver, attempting to hold all that in one hand, which also tries to do something else in parallel
    That sounds like a joke. But I know several people which chair several meetings per week, years long, yet they still can not handle personal mics correctly.
     

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    #20
    Starise
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/20 10:35:53 (permalink)
    To be fair I see the predicament with lapel mikes. Batteries need to be changed regularly if they are wireless and people are rough with them sometimes or don't know how to use them. If done correctly any number of setup could still work though.
    The place I work has several large teleconference rooms. I haven't looked at the gear there closely, but it looks as if they use some kind of gooseneck microphones on the table.50 people seems a very large number compared to the teleconferences I have seen. There usually aren't more than 15 people at any one locating.
     
    Anyways...good luck. Maybe someone else will chime in with another idea.

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    #21
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/20 15:04:52 (permalink)
    Starise
    Anyways...good luck. Maybe someone else will chime in with another idea.

    Thanks. I will test current system Monday, with 20-25 people in the room. And probably I need a bit of luck ;)

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    #22
    msmcleod
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/23 23:29:34 (permalink)
    I use a Samson UB1 for conferencing. Can't recommend it enough - it's been perfect for me.

    Mark McLeod
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    #23
    azslow3
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/24 08:41:27 (permalink)
    msmcleod
    I use a Samson UB1 for conferencing. Can't recommend it enough - it's been perfect for me.

    Thanks. An interesting device to try a boundary mics. Do you use it with Samson Sound Deck?
     
    After the test yesterday, my conclusions is that not personal mics is the way to go in my case:
    * 2 speakers was using lavalier mic, both have decided to not attach it to out neck, one had the transceiver in the same hand, effectively having the mic ~30cm away from the head (with obvious result). Another has fixed the transceiver on body, but still had the mic in hands. Articulating, so with 10-30cm distance.
    * 2 speakers was using dynamic mic. Both was handling it strict vertical, so pointing toward ceiling. One ~10cm from the mouth, another ~20cm.
    * the fact other could speak without giving mics or thinking into which direction to turn the head has improved the experience and the speed of discussions.
    * almost everything was recognizable on remote end.
     
    What was not good:
    * central conference processing (so outside of my tweaking possibilities) was handling mode switch with cracks/several seconds too loud or almost not audible signal. I guess I have to balance the total input signal better (I currently just mute room mics, without adjusting personal mics levels)
    * the natural room hall effect and the noise are on the very border of acceptable level. I definitively have to improve that (will try placing, caving mics, if that does not work other mic types).
     
    During the next test I am going to try ReaFIR as real time noise reducer. If that works better, I will need to replace DM with a computer. But these days that is even cheaper then good quality mics..
     

    Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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    #24
    msmcleod
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    Re: Need an advise about mics. 2018/07/24 09:24:42 (permalink)
    azslow3
    msmcleod
    I use a Samson UB1 for conferencing. Can't recommend it enough - it's been perfect for me.

    Thanks. An interesting device to try a boundary mics. Do you use it with Samson Sound Deck?
     
    After the test yesterday, my conclusions is that not personal mics is the way to go in my case:
    * 2 speakers was using lavalier mic, both have decided to not attach it to out neck, one had the transceiver in the same hand, effectively having the mic ~30cm away from the head (with obvious result). Another has fixed the transceiver on body, but still had the mic in hands. Articulating, so with 10-30cm distance.
    * 2 speakers was using dynamic mic. Both was handling it strict vertical, so pointing toward ceiling. One ~10cm from the mouth, another ~20cm.
    * the fact other could speak without giving mics or thinking into which direction to turn the head has improved the experience and the speed of discussions.
    * almost everything was recognizable on remote end.
     
    What was not good:
    * central conference processing (so outside of my tweaking possibilities) was handling mode switch with cracks/several seconds too loud or almost not audible signal. I guess I have to balance the total input signal better (I currently just mute room mics, without adjusting personal mics levels)
    * the natural room hall effect and the noise are on the very border of acceptable level. I definitively have to improve that (will try placing, caving mics, if that does not work other mic types).
     
    During the next test I am going to try ReaFIR as real time noise reducer. If that works better, I will need to replace DM with a computer. But these days that is even cheaper then good quality mics..
     




    I use it directly into my work laptop via USB. I use it mainly with Skype when conferencing with my colleagues in the US. It's way better than the conference mics we have in the office.
     
    The best thing about it is it seems to have a built in compression and/or AGC, so matter where you are in the room, you get a fairly even level.
     

    Mark McLeod
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    #25
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