bluebeat1313
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Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
Hi fellows. Have this "not easy" question ;)
My mixes are a bit muddy. Sort of in the "barrel" muddy. Whould like them to be more airy. With vocals stand out.
I must be clear upfront. I do music just for fun and for friends, not production or anything remotely close commercial sound... I do understand that the art of mixing takes many, many years. All I want is some basic bread and butter knowledge mixing in Cakewalk.
How and what I usually do.. simple tracking...
When I open Cakewalk I usually start with 2 tracks. Project 24 bit, Sampling 48000. I already have mixed down backing track from another software(24 bit Wav), so I import that Wav file in the first track. On second track I record my vocals.
How I use effects and other items: In the tracks I use "insert FX" . I am a lucky owner of Nectar Izotope 2 vocal suite. That is what I usually use to doctor my mixes. I usually add add a bit of EQ high frequencies, so vocals are more crisp and pronounced and a small amount of basic reverb. Then I use Pans on the tracks to pan instrumental slightly left (8-15% from center) and Vocals to the right about same amount. Sometimes, if I need a very quick mix, I would use "Vocal rider" plugin. But most of times Volume envelope automation. Both of tracks are going to the Master Bus. I would then insert another instance of FX (Nectar) to the Master BUS and use just compressor on overall mix, to make sound a bit tighter. Then I would "select all"---Export Audio---Channel format-Stereo-/ MP3---16bit 48Khz 256kbs. So now I have MP3.... It is ok, but a bit muddy.
I know, I know there tooooo many variables...
Well.. backing track sounds good by itself..and vocals sound ok. Together, using technique I described muddy...Can somebody suggest something useful, not too challenging to try "loosening up" mix a bit?
I thank you in advance!
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jpetersen
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 11:51:09
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Depends on what you mean by Mud.
But there's tons of youtube clips on this subject.
Guidelines for reducing lack of clarity: cut unneeded bass.
The quad EQ bottom control can be set for low cut. For vocals, start with 12dB and mess around in the 100 to 1kHz range.
It also has an upper-frequency added air function (forget what it's called), so try that.
Is the imported backing track already mixed down to stereo?
And are you sure that isn't already muddy?
If so, not so much you can do except notch out any areas where you hear droning resonances.
To find them, first set a Quad EQ band to a narrow boost, sweep around the frequency range until you hear a resonant drone being emphasized (it is pretty obvious when you hit one, even to a beginner), then cut it.
Then, compressing the vocals in addition to your vocal riding may help a bit.
You can add some frequency space for the vocals in the backing track by lowering the vocal frequency range. Drop a wide area around 2kHz to 5kHz by around 3-9dB rather than making the vocals louder.
FX only add to the lack of clarity, so in this type of situation I'd add those last, and only very tastefully.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 13:35:13
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when ever I hear the word mud, I think of only one thing- EQ.
Vocals that stand out in a mix start out with good habits right from the beginning. The microphone.
A good one will produce stellar results, a crap one.. you will end up getting what you paid for.
Mixing a vocal track contains 2 main ingredients: Compression + EQ.
Its really that easy.
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bluebeat1313
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 14:06:16
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chuckebaby, You are totally right about first steps! I have a decent Blue vocal mic and decent preamp. I learned my lesson on this one :) jpetersen, thank you for detailed write up! By muddy, I mean that mix sounds like it was recorded in wooden barrel :) The premixed backing track (stereo) does not sound muddy to me, so are vocals by themselves. As I understand from your post EQ is my best friend. I know that there are tons of youtube videos, but the reason why I posted this here is that I only use Cakewalk and wanted to check if I have at least common sense things down correctly as far as layout and basic mixdown technique in Cakewalk specifically. 1) EQ on insert FX on both tracks (vocal and backing track) 2) Compressor on Master. And for mixdown: "select all"---Export Audio---Channel format-Stereo-/ MP3---16bit 48Khz 256kbs... To be honest, I guess my main goal is to get mix, more or less neutral, but clear. This question might seem a bit unintelligent to some, but I hope somebody can put it in simple way. The EQ as I understand does not work as "Vocal rider". Meaning, it does not "ride" audio, it is "set" as you set it to be and it stays that way? Unfortunately for me, I can not get backing tracks I am using in multiple instrument tracks to adjust individual instrument EQ in how it "seats" in the mix. Maybe I am hallucinating, but in my case I feel that often times part of the song would be clear and part would be muddy... That might be because the premixed backing tracks have some instruments entering in the middle for example that have frequencies that are different from the ones that EQ was set initially and that creates a "conflict of interest" with vocal tracks? I guess I have to actually learn about EQ theory in mixing instruments with vocals, not just do it "by ear".
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bitflipper
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 14:26:31
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"Mud" is a vague term that can suggest several unrelated phenomena, but most of the time it's used to describe an excessive buildup of frequencies within the so-called "mud range". Even the mud range isn't well-defined. To me it's the frequencies between 200 and 500 Hz, but sometimes you can have "mud" below 200 Hz and as high as 800 Hz as well.
Usually, it's because too many individual tracks are contributing content within the same range, making it harder to distinguish one from the other. However, reverb and delays can also cause smudging and a similar loss of definition and separation when the tails keep going too long and walk over the next note.
The "barrel" analogy suggests another source of mud: acoustical resonance. A barrel (or culvert, or drum) sounds the way it does because it has a series of resonant frequencies that are amplified via constructive interference. You don't have to be in a barrel to experience this phenomenon. Any room that doesn't have acoustical absorption is going to present resonances. Merely positioning your microphone too close to a window can bring it out.
You might consider posting an example for us to listen to.
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Brian Walton
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 14:37:15
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bluebeat1313
Hi fellows. Have this "not easy" question ;)
My mixes are a bit muddy. Sort of in the "barrel" muddy. Whould like them to be more airy. With vocals stand out.
I must be clear upfront. I do music just for fun and for friends, not production or anything remotely close commercial sound... I do understand that the art of mixing takes many, many years. All I want is some basic bread and butter knowledge mixing in Cakewalk.
How and what I usually do.. simple tracking...
When I open Cakewalk I usually start with 2 tracks. Project 24 bit, Sampling 48000. I already have mixed down backing track from another software(24 bit Wav), so I import that Wav file in the first track. On second track I record my vocals.
How I use effects and other items: In the tracks I use "insert FX" . I am a lucky owner of Nectar Izotope 2 vocal suite. That is what I usually use to doctor my mixes. I usually add add a bit of EQ high frequencies, so vocals are more crisp and pronounced and a small amount of basic reverb. Then I use Pans on the tracks to pan instrumental slightly left (8-15% from center) and Vocals to the right about same amount. Sometimes, if I need a very quick mix, I would use "Vocal rider" plugin. But most of times Volume envelope automation. Both of tracks are going to the Master Bus. I would then insert another instance of FX (Nectar) to the Master BUS and use just compressor on overall mix, to make sound a bit tighter. Then I would "select all"---Export Audio---Channel format-Stereo-/ MP3---16bit 48Khz 256kbs. So now I have MP3.... It is ok, but a bit muddy.
I know, I know there tooooo many variables...
Well.. backing track sounds good by itself..and vocals sound ok. Together, using technique I described muddy...Can somebody suggest something useful, not too challenging to try "loosening up" mix a bit?
I thank you in advance!
Download a trial of izotope Neutron. Put it on each of your tracks and run track assist. Then look at what it applies in each module. https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/products/neutron/using-the-track-assistant-in-neutron.html I think you will find this more valuable than asking generic questions, as this will show you on your actual recordings.
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jpetersen
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 15:40:53
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> By muddy, I mean that mix sounds like it was recorded in wooden barrel
In that case you are getting the room acoustics bleeding into the microphone.
No amount of FX, EQ and Vocal Rider gonna fix that.
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Brian Walton
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 16:00:28
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jpetersen
> By muddy, I mean that mix sounds like it was recorded in wooden barrel
In that case you are getting the room acoustics bleeding into the microphone.
No amount of FX, EQ and Vocal Rider gonna fix that.
Gotta disagree here. While it isn't easy to correct...this recording was done in a 100% untreated room all live tracked at the same time at full band volume (vocals were into a PA speaker, to provide volume with the band) in a fairly small room with zero possibility of isolation. https://open.spotify.com/album/4k6BkIlstk8k5GwaFCLea3 It sounds like the OP is tracking one at a time with a single microphone, which is way easier in terms of acoustics and bleed. (to clarify - this mix wasn't done with "track assist" feature - it was done by a pro and his ears, but I did the recording and I know just how bad the room is as well as what the raw tracks sounded like before "FX and EQ")
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mettelus
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 16:11:56
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On a cell here, so this will appear curt. If you have EQd off low end of the vocal, but the vocal is the source of the "mud" (seems to be the comment above), toggle on/off Nectar 2 to give yourself a reality check with vocals solo'd.
As that is an FX chain it is easy to over process, or even smear audio (via reverb and delay-based effects) and then processing that further. You lose clarity fast that way - is this the "mud"? If toggling Nectar on off yields an epiphany, toggle it back on and start disabling modules (I would start with reverb).
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gswitz
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 18:39:27
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Mautoalign can help with problems related to bleed.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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bluebeat1313
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 18:47:36
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Guys,
Thank you for your support!!! A lot of useful stuff!
Brian, I think your suggestion of trying Izotope Neutron was exactly what I need.
Plugin gives overall good balance, and then I fine tuned EQ and Compressor. Right away mix became more loose and airy (as I wanted) I guess built in Izotope High Frequency exciter contributed to a better mix too. It is a shame Izotope is so pricey, but I believe most of their products can be purchased second hand... Mac and cheese for me for the next few weeks.
It would be awesome if Cakewalk had a sort of "Track assistant" similar to Izotope. Price would also be more affordable, since of a much larger user base. Or even better, sub-licence slimmed down version :) Wishes wishes....
Last question related to the topic please. After I have done with mix in Cakewalk (mp3), what Windows player I should listen it on to get a good idea of actual (neutral) sound? It seems to me that Windows Groove player (default) is coloring sound dramatically. VLC player seems to do a better job. Is there a standard on this? What would be the most "neutral" player musicians would use to audition mixdowns under Windows?
Thanks!
Mike.
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bapu
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 19:25:14
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bluebeat1313
What would be the most "neutral" player musicians would use to audition mixdowns under Windows?
Some say IK Multimedia ARC 2 will help neutralize your room, other disagree. Sonarworks has a similar tool but they also make a version specifically for many mid to top end headphones. There also are companies (Ultimate Ears in my experience) that make neutral in ear monitors. None of these options are "cheap" but they can be effective. Nothing beats proper room treatment (if you can afford it and your room configured in proper proportions  ). When all fails (due to cost factors) go back to your OP and remind yourself that it can also take a long time to simply learn your environment (i.e. room, speakers and headphones etc) by auditioning you mixes on a variety of devices (car, phone, mp3 player, home CD system).
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bluebeat1313
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/01 22:45:01
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Bapu. I do not have problems with room acoustics, someone just mentioned as a possible factor.
My last question was not about the hardware, but software player. I believe that Windows 10 Groove player, that comes with Windows, puts color when playing MP3. For example another player VLC puts less color and more neutral.
For example Shure SM58 is iconic mic for a reason. No surprises. It is far not the best mic, but at least you know what you are getting. I was wondering if there sort of specific Windows player that was made specifically for auditioning MP3 (or WAV mixes).
Another thought...If I use Cakewalk as a "player" to playback mixed MP3. After Cakewalk mixes down 24bit project to 16bit MP3... I assume, I have to start new project at 16bit and import 16bit MP3.
If I import 16bit MP3 to 24bit project it would sound different because of conversion?
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Rbh
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/02 00:39:01
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The understanding of a few basic tools can get you going in the right direction. A frequency analyzer such as - Voxengo Span - which is free, and basic channel eq with a high pass filter can do a tremendous amount of good. Learning to isolate resonate frequencies and applying narrow cuts in comparison to competing frequencies in other tracks is key to cleaning up muddy tracks. My motto when mixing is get rid of the ugly stuff. Then it always seems to boil down to composition and arraignment.
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jpetersen
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/02 16:01:51
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bluebeat1313
I believe that Windows 10 Groove player, that comes with Windows, puts color when playing MP3. For example another player VLC puts less color and more neutral.
The windows driver for your built-in audio might have additional boosts for playing back on computer speakers, headphones, etc. But if you are listening back over your external interface, this does not come into play. bluebeat1313
For example Shure SM58 is iconic mic for a reason. No surprises. It is far not the best mic, but at least you know what you are getting. I was wondering if there sort of specific Windows player that was made specifically for auditioning MP3 (or WAV mixes).
No. But you raise an interesting point. You cannot know what device your audience will use to play back on, so you need to have a listen on the most common playback media. Traditionally that was mono radio, HIFI system and car stereo. There's many more now. bluebeat1313
Another thought...If I use Cakewalk as a "player" to playback mixed MP3. After Cakewalk mixes down 24bit project to 16bit MP3... I assume, I have to start new project at 16bit and import 16bit MP3.
If I import 16bit MP3 to 24bit project it would sound different because of conversion?
Never reimport MP3. Always use the original WAV file. MP3 is a lossy compression system and every time you put it through a mixdown the quality will get worse. If you have the 24bit, use that in a 24bit project.
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bluebeat1313
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Re: Mix technique in Cakewalk. Please suggest..
2018/08/02 23:08:19
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jpetersen, thank you for explanation about "common media"!
I remember a friend who was into recording said once that they would have $3k Speakers and $20 pair in studio. and that a good mix should sound good on both sets :)
I usually try to playback mixes through external interface and then through built in sound card and also as you mentioned in the car. It just seems to me that actual Windows software audio players, interpret same file differently. To my ears, VLC player is more on neutral side than others I have tried from "common" media players...
Brian, a HUGE thanks! Neutron is just super cool! Right out of the box it gives correct direction where the mix should be heading. Also features as Tonal control, Visual mixer are just fantastic. Cleared up the mix in a matter of minutes. Very powerful tool.
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