Focusrite 18i20 ??

Guys,
 
Some good opinions needed please. Couple questions.
Got to bite the bullet and retire my solid M-Audio 1010LT.  PCI slot and need to upgrade the computer with PCI all but obsolete. Any experience with the PCI to PCIex converters or am I beating a dead horse.
 
Was looking otherwise at the 2nd gen Focusrite 18i20 USB 2 hardware and saw Jesse's post on the failed 1st gen.
 
Is there any reason not to go with the Focusrite?  Current sale is $449 new and mostly good reviews.
 
My understanding is that waiting for USB 3 is a waste because it won't deliver incremental better performance even through there are a few specs that look good on paper. There's Thunderbolt and the old Firewire but seems like USB 2 will carry a good load. Just got the jitters getting away from a hard wired card. I know this topic has been beaten up in the past, so asking more about where we are currently that would change recommendations.
 
Thanks,
John

Thanks Bit, and hope you are also out of the current heatwave. Blazing 68 degrees on the coast. Dog days of summer...
 
Firewire so many advantages in speed and stability over USB 2. Unless building a session one track at a time where the advantage seems to wash out, USB can't keep up (even the older Firewire 400 seems to run theoretical rings around USB 2). Last 18i20 is USB 2 with no Firewire port. Don't know how much of a speed hit USB 2 will impose even over the older Firewire standard. Like got a fast computer but the bottleneck in USB 2 causing latency, pops, crackles because it can only go so fast. Argument about USB 2 versus waiting for USB 3 still rages. USB 3 interface in some opinions wiping out Firewire 800. Others claiming there will be no benefit. Analogy was put forth that if you got a package to be delivered, USB 2 is a car. USB 3 is a big truck. No matter how big the vehicle, it will still only deliver the package in the same time frame, so no advantage to be had. This why the industry is not keen on implementing USB 3.
 
Any enlightenment thrown my way is appreciated.
 
John
 

My only experience with the Focusrite boxes was helping a friend install one of their entry level 2 in 2 out boxes (no midi port). Latency was good, win 10 on an older i3.  I was impressed by the clean, transparent sound quality. Can thus assume that the 18i20 will work well.
 
Hard to abandon my setup with the 1010LT wired with a 2496. Same driver, 10 audio input channels and rock solid. Reality set in when the Fathom synth demo sounded like a popcorn popper. The dev asked me the specs of my 10 year old Vostro and told me that it may have some antique value.
 
Still trying to find some information or recommendations on the PCI to PCIex adapters. They do exist and require a minor metalwork project because the adapter raises the height of the slot. Just don't know what the downside would be. Otherwise, Bit's thumbs up on Focusrite carries a lot of weight. Best option I have seen so far.
 
John

JohnKenn
 
Reality set in when the Fathom synth demo sounded like a popcorn popper. The dev asked me the specs of my 10 year old Vostro and told me that it may have some antique value.

I understand the feeling there.  I picked up Fathom Pro on sale, and it is a beast!  It does seem to be very CPU hungry, and I get the pops if I let the polyphony get too high, regardless of my audio buffer settings.  And I am still running a FireWire audio interface on my desktop.

My iMac machine has got the Focusrite 18i20 as the interface and it is excellent. Jesse's experience with the 1st gen is very rare and unusual for sure. Do not base anything on that. 
 
Latency is pretty reasonable with the 18i20. It has lots of ins and outs and Focusrite Control is also very versatile. Mic Pre quality is excellent BTW so don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 
 
PreSonus are now making USB 3 interfaces and they will have improved latency for sure.  They are taking advantage of the faster speed.  It will be in the order of a fast interface running on thunderbolt on a Mac e.g. Focusrite Clarett can get under 2 mS latency over thunderbolt on my iMac here. 
 
PCI based interfaces are still great and RME are the people to look into for that. I have got around 2mS now with my PCI RME interface in my Win 7 machine. It is way fast. The PCI buss is pretty quick. Plus it gets the interface right away from the USB buss which often has a raft of other stuff running at the same time on the same port.  Also you can never accidentally disconnect a PCI based interface either.  RME PCI (and PCIe) interfaces are dead silent as well and sound as stellar as any of their other models. 

I've had the 2nd Gen 18i20 USB for about a year.   Really like it, and have not experienced one issue with it in either Sonar or Cubase. 

JohnKenn
Here are a couple links to the PCIex to PCI adapters. One got a negative review because the old card didn't fit, but this is a given and why a minor adjustment to the case with a hacksaw is necessary. Nothing noted on how well they work. Don't cost that much. Could be worth a try to hang onto what already works well.
 
https://www.neweggbusiness.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIV10D7167649&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleBizMKPL-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleBizMKPL-PC-_-pla-_-Add-On+Cards-_-9SIV10D7167649&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3vnGlpfe3AIVibfsCh1dSgd_EAQYBSABEgJYyvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Startech-com-PEX1PCI1-PCI-Express-to-PCI-Adapter-Card/13216248?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227000296254&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42534089072&wl4=pla-81190916672&wl5=9033014&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=13216248&wl13=&veh=sem
 
Stickman, please update on how the 6i6 works for you.

 
John -
Thanks for this. I followed up and did some additional research. Bottom line: I have some hardware coming my way: A new DAW; a Focusrite 6i6 ; and a PCIe-PCI adaptor card. The Echo Layla 3G has a very small PCB and I'm optimistic that the adapter will work out, albeit with some trimming of the PCI card's back plate I imagine.


For what it's worth, my real-world normal operation with the Echo on my current DAW is ~6ms each way with 256 buffers, for a total RTL of 13 ms. 

I won't side-line this thread further. I think I'll start a separate thread about testing and comparing both audio interfaces in the new box when they arrive. 
 
Cheers

Wondering also about what if any compromises are there in the PCI conversion. Irony is that some of the old PCI cards are so rock solid and could go on for years of service if the slot itself hadn't become obsolete when you upgrade the computer and the thing will no longer fit.
When I get bummed out about my M-Audio card, I think of the guys who spent 5000 dollars on an RME card.
 
Got a Focusrite box coming that should do the job. Very much interested to get Stickman's report on the PCI converter. There may still be hope for vintage hardware if the converter works as advertised.
John

It may be a moot point now, but if anyone is still looking (especially if lowest possible round-trip latency is a priority), check out the Presonus Quantum.
 
Can take the ASIO buffer size down to 16-samples (sub 2ms total round-trip latency).
 
It's a Thunderbolt audio interface, so you'll need a Thunderbolt-3 connection.

I have some results, comparing my PCI-based ECHO Layla 3G with the Focusrite 6i6 USB 2.0.
For the full story, read here.  To save you navigating my lengthy prose, here is the bottom line:
 
Interface: ECHO Layla 3G PCI
Buffer Size ASIO Reported RTL     Measured RTL
----------- --------------------- ------------
  256       13.7 ms  602 samples    0.015 sec
  128        7.8 ms  346 samples    0.010 sec
   64        4.9 ms  218 samples    0.007 sec

Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 USB2.0
Buffer Size ASIO Reported RTL     Measured RTL
----------- --------------------- ------------
256         25.5 ms 1102 samples    0.037 sec
128         13.1 ms  578 samples    0.020 sec
64           8.2 ms  362 samples    0.013 sec
 
So, on this computer at least, the Focusrite USB is about twice as slow as the ECHO PCI.

I still own a 1st generation Scarlett 18i20 and my experience is great with this interface.
Latency is very good, preamps are great, lots of in/out, great drivers, etc.
I now have a clarett 8pre usb and it is even better but I use my 18i20 for live gigs with excellent results.
Good Luck