Helpful ReplyDe-esssss

Author
JohnEgan
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 543
  • Joined: 2014/10/21 10:03:57
  • Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
  • Status: offline
2018/09/24 11:23:03 (permalink)

De-esssss

Hi all,
 
Im just looking for some feedback on what people are using for De-esser plug-ins that are effective, or is it best to do manually (i.e., Melodyne, EQ, dynamic EQ/compressors) Some Ive tried dont seem that effective, Melodyne works great but sometimes quite labour intensive, LOL. Ive got Izotope Nectar2, De-ess module, it doesn't seem that effective, was considering Fab-Filters DS, but its somewhat costly. 
Anyway any feedback would be appreciated
Cheers 

John Egan
Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64,  O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(,  in the yard).
 
#1
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
> 2018/09/24 13:44:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2018/09/26 09:13:07
>
 
 
 
 
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/26 12:13:44


#2
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9871
  • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
  • Location: Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/24 14:19:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2018/09/26 09:13:24
Isolate the offending sibilant syllables as separate clips.
You can then apply a specific "De-Ess" plugin or use an EQ to tame each one.
Applying a blanket De-Ess or EQ can make the vocal sound unnatural.
This process leaves the rest of the vocal untouched. 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#3
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10037
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL,UT
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/24 14:47:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2018/09/26 09:13:29
i happen to like wave's renaissance de-esser
 
https://www.waves.com/plugins/renaissance-deesser
 
super easy to dial in, can be fairly transparent

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#4
Leadfoot
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2817
  • Joined: 2011/04/26 11:08:38
  • Location: Indiana
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/24 15:10:24 (permalink)
Sonar has a vocal processor (vx-64 or something like that) that has a decent de-esser. I don't know if CbB has it or not.
#5
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/24 18:26:40 (permalink)
Pro-DS is very good and can even do more than just de-essing. However, it is expensive. Enough so that I've not been able to justify its purchase, even after demoing and seeing just how good it is.
 
I do not currently employ (nor need) a dedicated de-esser. That's because in most cases you can do the job just fine with any compressor that features a parametric sidechain filter. Dynamic equalizers or multi-band compressors are another option.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#6
clintmartin
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3893
  • Joined: 2009/10/11 12:16:43
  • Location: Fort Smith, AR
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/25 02:30:02 (permalink)
Toneboosters Sibalance, when I use one.

Cakewalk, Harrison Mixbus 4, Waveform 9, ADK intel i7 2600 3.40 ghz, 8gb Ram, Win 7, Presonus Audiobox 44VSL. 
http://www.youtube.com/c/clintmartinmusic
https://itunes.apple.com/...lint-martin/1010966023
https://open.spotify.com/artist/4x4TBz32i56bTJkgu7b4tN
 
 
 
#7
Marshall
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 602
  • Joined: 2007/06/14 04:28:16
  • Location: Alicante, Spain
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/25 10:53:11 (permalink)
bitflipper
Pro-DS is very good and can even do more than just de-essing. However, it is expensive. Enough so that I've not been able to justify its purchase, even after demoing and seeing just how good it is.
 
I do not currently employ (nor need) a dedicated de-esser. That's because in most cases you can do the job just fine with any compressor that features a parametric sidechain filter. Dynamic equalizers or multi-band compressors are another option.


This is a subject I am interested in because, for some strange reason that sssss sound has started creeping into my own vocal recordings. Never been an issue before, but for whatever reason it seems to be now.

I don’t have a dedicated de-Esser but I do own many, many third party plugins, which, if I had the knowledge I’m sure could sort this issue out. E.g., I have Ozone Advanced and hence access to their dynamic EQ as a stand-alone. I also have the studio version of Melodyne that the OP mentioned. And numerous compressors by Waves, as well as the included ones in Sonar and Studio One.

Can someone point me to a tutorial on how I can use any of these to address the sibilance issue?
#8
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
> 2018/09/25 12:17:35 (permalink)
>
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/26 12:14:02


#9
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 00:55:43 (permalink)
Marshall
This is a subject I am interested in because, for some strange reason that sssss sound has started creeping into my own vocal recordings. Never been an issue before, but for whatever reason it seems to be now.



Rather than attempting to remedy it with processors, I'd be inclined to approach this as a tracking problem. Unless you've somehow developed a new whistle between your teeth, it's most likely an issue with the acoustics in your vocal space, your miking technique, or even a problem with the microphone itself.
 
The fix could be as simple as adding a pop filter, singing a little off-axis, rotating the microphone a few degrees, moving the mic further from a wall/window, or draping a packing blanket nearby. You'll need to try some experiments.
 
There was a time when I used to spend hours fixing vocals in the mix. Of all the various remedial tactics I've employed, at least some of them must have worked because it's been ages since I've had to fix essiness on a vocal. The last time, it turned out to be a broken microphone.
 
(BTW, one of the most effective changes I made was switching from an expensive condenser to a cheap dynamic mic for recording my own vocals. Maybe if I had a better voice I might need the greater accuracy, but the good old '58 fits me like a glove. I just have to use some self-control and avoid eating the mic.)


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#10
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5139
  • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
  • Location: Ballarat, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 01:21:32 (permalink)
Sometimes it is not necessarily a technical issue but to do with the person in front of the microphone.  I have had the sweetest smooth sounding mic and preamp and yet with certain individuals the sssssing can be unbearable.
 
The Waves De-esser is pretty good too.  Just listen to the side chain sound for a moment, dial in where it is concentrated and then let it do its thing. 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2018/09/26 11:24:00

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
#11
Marshall
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 602
  • Joined: 2007/06/14 04:28:16
  • Location: Alicante, Spain
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 11:15:33 (permalink)
I am beginning to think it’s the mic. I haven’t developed any speech impediment. I haven’t changed my vocal technique in years. I have a fully treated recording space. I have recently had other intermittent issues with a medium frequency buzzing sound when I engage input echo. This problem has coincided with the excess ess-ing. I’ve tried a new mic cable. The frequency is too high to be an earth hum. I’m using a Rode NT3 which is 18 years old! Boy, have I had my money’s worth. Unfortunately I don’t have access to another mic to test things.

I’m all for sorting this out at the source, rather than messing with software after the event. Thinking of buying a Rode NT1.
#12
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5139
  • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
  • Location: Ballarat, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 11:25:51 (permalink)
Bill's issue sounds technical. Just as a matter of interest the NT1 is not the smoothest of their range in terms of highs. It can be quite toppy at times. It is a fine microphone but I tend to use it in front of more dull sources to balance things out.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
 
Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
#13
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
^ 2018/09/26 11:41:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby fret_man 2018/09/26 14:02:18
^
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/28 19:17:06


#14
pwalpwal
Max Output Level: -43 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3249
  • Joined: 2015/01/17 03:52:50
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 13:36:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/09/26 15:51:36
Bash von Gitfiddle
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been moved to "hardware" or "techniques" now that it has been turned in to a "techniques" with "hardware" discussion. :-b


it's a dying forum, no-one can be arsed with that sort of thing any more

just a sec

#15
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 15:29:19 (permalink)
Marshall
Thinking of buying a Rode NT1.



Don't do it. It's a nice mic and all, and a good value for the price. But definitely not a solution for sibilance problems!
 
You might consider a nice ribbon instead. Or an SM-58, which is only a hundred bucks and even if it doesn't help your vocals it'll still be useful for other applications.
 
Bash makes a good point, in that sibilance comes in many forms, and that's what makes detecting and mitigating it via software such a challenge. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#16
Kamikaze
Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3013
  • Joined: 2015/01/15 21:38:59
  • Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 15:40:55 (permalink)
Bash von Gitfiddle
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been moved to "hardware" or "techniques" now that it has been turned in to a "techniques" with "hardware" discussion. :-b
 
In my experience, the number one cause of essing is:
 

 
 
 
 





 
#17
Grem
Max Output Level: -19.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5562
  • Joined: 2005/06/28 09:26:32
  • Location: Baton Rouge Area
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 16:20:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2018/09/26 16:39:20
Good info BvG.
 
 
And thanks for the Public Service Kami!! : )

Grem

Michael
 
Music PC
i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, 
Home PC
AMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 
Surface Pro 3
Win 10  i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
#18
Marshall
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 602
  • Joined: 2007/06/14 04:28:16
  • Location: Alicante, Spain
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 16:25:34 (permalink)
bitflipper
Marshall
Thinking of buying a Rode NT1.



Don't do it. It's a nice mic and all, and a good value for the price. But definitely not a solution for sibilance problems!
 
You might consider a nice ribbon instead. Or an SM-58, which is only a hundred bucks and even if it doesn't help your vocals it'll still be useful for other applications.
 
Bash makes a good point, in that sibilance comes in many forms, and that's what makes detecting and mitigating it via software such a challenge. 


Until a few weeks ago I didn’t have any sibilance problems! I’m tempted to go for a new NT3 - the mic I’ve known and loved for nearly two decades. Trouble is, I can’t be 100% certain it’s the mic that’s at fault. Plus, I’d like a new toy...hence thinking of the NT1.
#19
marled
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 251
  • Joined: 2015/01/22 04:50:52
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 16:28:38 (permalink)
In the last album I was also fighting with sibilances in vocal tracks. I tried dozens of settings with 6 different deesser plugins (BT DeEsser DS2S, TB_DeEsser, SleepyTime Lisp, TB_Sibalance, VX-64 Vocal Strip, Tonmann DeEsser). In the end I was not really satisfied, but ran with Lisp (the best IMO). Beforehand I tried to reduce the esses with Melodyne.
 
I have identified 3 problems:
1.) When I had a perfect deesser setting for one case, it was rather bad for another in the same track. To change the settings for each case (automation) was too labor intensive, I thought.
2.) After a while Working on one track  I could not hear anymore if the reduction was too much or not enough.
3.) Reducing the ess-sounds beforehand (Melodyne) did not include problems caused by later compression or other modulation.
 
Thus I am still waiting for the "wonder" DeEsser plugin  (I have already considered some).
 
Marc

... many years before ...
#20
Kamikaze
Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3013
  • Joined: 2015/01/15 21:38:59
  • Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 16:44:45 (permalink)
When I teach voiced consonants (usually as part of past simple regular) I have my kids put two fingers on the larynx  and stretch out the words. Some don't get it, so I put their fingers on mine to demonstrate to them hwat to feel for. The look on their faces as I say 'plaaaaaaaayed' 'puuuullllled', is priceless.

 
#21
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9871
  • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
  • Location: Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 17:54:08 (permalink)
If you're a singer with propensity towards sibilance, what you don't want is a microphone that has a large presence boost in the higher mids. 
Many mics have a presence boost in the mids (to make them sound more present/aggressive).
This can exaggerate the sibilance to where it's problematic.
 
A flatter sounding mic would be what I'd recommend.
 
As Bit mentioned, Ribbon mics are often used for guitars/horns and other scenarios where the source can be a bit "brash".  Ribbon mics like the Royer R121 can rein that in a bit.
 
I'd first work with mic position/technique.
If the sibilance can't be tamed enough with technique and mic position, it's time to look for a flatter sounding mic.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#22
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
" 2018/09/26 18:55:34 (permalink)
"
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/28 19:16:35


#23
marled
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 251
  • Joined: 2015/01/22 04:50:52
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/09/26 20:01:38 (permalink)
100+
This is also one thing I have learned testing my newest play thing an AT2035 microphone. It is very important to have enough distance to the mic. Maybe this is one reason why I had too much sibilance with older recordings with my AKG C414B-ULS. But nevertheless the recording is only one reason for getting too much sibilance, the processing (compress ...) is the other one!
 
Marc

... many years before ...
#24
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
" 2018/09/27 11:48:14 (permalink)
"
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/28 19:16:49


#25
Marshall
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 602
  • Joined: 2007/06/14 04:28:16
  • Location: Alicante, Spain
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/10/13 16:45:46 (permalink)
bitflipper
Marshall
Thinking of buying a Rode NT1.



Don't do it.


I didn’t. Went for and an Aston Origin instead - absolutely love it 😍!
#26
rebel007
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 926
  • Joined: 2013/07/17 11:24:29
  • Location: Victoria, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: De-esssss 2018/10/16 02:13:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Marshall 2018/10/16 07:03:59
I like my NT1. Not so great on my male voice, seems overly harsh (could be just my voice though). Works well on female voices, sublime on brass/woodwind instruments where you can place the mic a little further away than with a vocalist. Can be a bit harsh on acoustic pianos and guitars though where some subtleties may wish to be recorded.
But to the OP regarding sibilance, I agree with those that are saying mic technique is a good start. Place the mic a little further away. I've also had success wrapping the mic in 4 to 6 inches of cotton wool, then placing a good pop filter in front. This also relates to the previous sentence, as it keeps the vocalist further from the mic.
Bitflipper has a point in using a dynamic mic, as these tend to pick up less of those pesky sss's, and if you get really close you still pick up the subtleties of the mouth/throat/tongue etc, and mic technique is also less of an issue. However, mic technique can become tricky, as you lose those subtleties if you have a softer voice and move off the mic even just a little.
So, can't go past a good quality capacitor mic. Comes down to good engineering practice by the sound recordist, good mic technique by the vocalist, and good post production by the person doing the mixing.
 
Any good EQ, compressor, or de-esser can work wonders. But, if you want the best results, you will need to use these independently on each instance of the offending words. I can't stress this enough, you can set a catch-all setting on a good de-esser, but you won't get the same results every time, as each word is sung differently depending on what part of the vocal range the singer is in, what words or breaths have come before it, and how the singer is using the microphone at that exact time the word is sung.
Hope this helps.
P.S. I've used the VX64 quite a bit over the years, but never for the de-esser as a de-esser.

Home Built Desktop Computer: Intel Core i5 750: 4Mb RAM: NVidia 210 Silent: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum: Roland OctaCapture
Presario CQ41 Laptop: Intel Core i5 760: 4Mb RAM: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum (Retired)
CbB on HP Pavilion Laptop 64bit: GeForce Video Card: Intel 8550: 256GB SSD 1TB Data Drive: Windows10 64bit
#27
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1