Monitoring While Recording

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konradh
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2018/09/28 14:44:42 (permalink)

Monitoring While Recording

Using Sonar X1 and a VS-700 studio.
 
I moved my studio to a new location and things have been working fine; but when I recorded a vocal for the first time in the new location, something weird happened:
  • I could hear the recorded tracks just fine in headphones and monitors, but could not hear the live vocal as it was being recorded.
  • I *could* hear the reverb on the vocal. I turned that very low to avoid confusing the singer.
  • After recording, the vocal track was there and fine, but it was obviously difficult to record when the singer and I could only hear her voice in the open air.
  • I have not had this issue recording virtual instruments.
The blue echo thing on the track was on--sorry, I don't recall the real name for that--the fader was up, and everything looked normal. I think I have forgotten or am missing some very basic setting somewhere.
 
Thoughts?  Thanks.

Konrad
Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    bitman
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 16:16:22 (permalink)
    I use a mixer ahead of the interface with the audio from the daw looping back through the 2 track inputs.
    And monitor that mixer. 0 latency no matter what the buff.
    #2
    sock monkey
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 16:25:03 (permalink)
    bitman
    I use a mixer ahead of the interface with the audio from the daw looping back through the 2 track inputs.
    And monitor that mixer. 0 latency no matter what the buff.




     
    Ditto, I started using a little Mackie mixer I bought for under $50 as a headphone mixer a long time ago. It has effects for those who like that while tracking. You can make it loud!! I have instant control over the headphone mix. 
    The only thing is you need to be able to split out each input. 
    My vocal mike goes through a pre amp which has 2 outputs. For my guitars I will run an extra mike on the amp and for the acoustic I steal from my DI box. I leave all this set up so I can record just about anything without swapping cables around. 
    I even have a drum machine patched in for quick demos and finding tempos. 
     
    I would think a V studio has very capable direct monitoring built in,, youève possibly hit a button that changed things. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    #3
    konradh
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 17:37:39 (permalink)
    Appreciate the advice for future set-ups, guys. For now, I wish I could figure out what got messed up.
     
    I have tried direct monitoring with the V-Studio and could never make it do anything. I follow the directions and push the buttons, but nothing changes.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #4
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 19:05:46 (permalink)
    I am confused about how you could hear the reverb on the vocal without hearing the vocal.
    #5
    frankjcc
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 20:23:46 (permalink)
    do you have this issue with a new project? sometimes projects get corrupted and weird anomalies like this happen.  what setup do you have where you hear the reverb, is it on a buss? the track? lastly do you normally use the live input function to have no latency(don't know if that unit has this function) or do you normally use input monitoring from the track and leave the hardware input muted?

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    #6
    brundlefly
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/28 20:37:51 (permalink)
    Possibly you have the vocal track Outputting to the Reverb bus instead of Sending? Or, if the reverb is on the vocal track, you'll need to adjust the wet/dry mix in the plugin to be mostly dry. Normally you would want to  put the reverb on a bus, set it to full wet, and Send from the track to the bus at a low level.
     

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    #7
    BMOG
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 01:15:27 (permalink)
    bitman
    I use a mixer ahead of the interface with the audio from the daw looping back through the 2 track inputs.
    And monitor that mixer. 0 latency no matter what the buff.
    In this setup how is you daw getting the mic signal to record?

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    #8
    konradh
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 02:41:06 (permalink)
    Thanks for replying.  To answer the questions:
    1-I always set up a bus for the vocal reverb, a bus for drum reverb, and a bus for instrument reverb.  I insert a reverb (like Lexicon) into each reverb bus and set it at 100%.  I then use the track send to send to the reverb so the singer can hear reverb while recording.  I usually set the send pretty low (like -24).
    2-The setup is the same I have used for years.  The mic is plugged into the VS-700 I/O.  The I/O is connected to the VS console via a proprietary connection.  The console is connected to the computer via USB.  I have been recording tracks and everything is working fine--except for this new vocal problem.
    3-In Preferences, I have recording set to Overwrite when recording vocals (so I can punch in) and to Sound on Sound when recording MIDI.
    4-Direct Mix is OFF in the VS studio (because I have never been able to tell it works right).
    5-In Sonar, I select the proper VS-700 input on the track.  Output is Master.  This is working since I am successfully recording the voice.  It is just the monitoring during recording that is odd.
    6-I tested the set up somewhat before the singer arrived.  I could hear myself in the mic and was getting a good level.  This all seems to fall apart when arming the track and recording.
    7-Input echo is ON on the track.
     

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #9
    gswitz
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 10:08:08 (permalink)
    Hearing the reverb says to me that the vocal is successfully getting into cakewalk.

    To troubleshoot, i would disable all fx (e key).

    If you can hear the vocal prior to starting record, great! Trace the path from studio track to bus. Note the fx and consider disabling them after hitting e to re-enable all.

    If you cannot hear the vocal prior to record after disabling fx, go to the audio track, route it directly to your interface. Ensure input echo is on. Click record enable.

    Still can't hear it? Check the input gain on the interface. Do you need phantom power enabled on this Mic?

    ...

    Once you can hear the vocal, try recording and see if you can hear it. Mute the reverb bus if necessary. Solo the vocal track. Is it working?

    If yes prior to record and no while recording, then i understand your frustration, konradh.

    Maybe look at your sound on sound vs overwrite setting?

    After recording for a bit without hearing it, hit stop and play it back. Can you hear it?

    ...

    It sounds like the act of recording is causing the issue. That makes me wonder whether the vocal is set as the input on more than one audio track. One is record enabled and one is not?
    post edited by gswitz - 2018/09/29 10:38:32

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    #10
    brundlefly
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 16:34:35 (permalink)
    konradh
    I could hear myself in the mic and was getting a good level.  This all seems to fall apart when arming the track and recording.


    Do you lose the input-monitoring as soon as you arm the track, or not until the transport starts running? Either way, I can't really think of a configuration/scenario that would cause this other than some kind of project corruption. Does this happen in a new project started from the Basic template? What if you output the vocal track direct to main/hardware outs instead of a Vocal or Master bus in the current project?
     
    BTW, any particular reason you haven't moved on to CbB? It's light-years ahead of X1 in features and stability. And since it can be installed and run in parallel with SONAR, there isn't really a reason not to give it a whirl at least.

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    #11
    mettelus
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 18:23:26 (permalink)
    Check quick that the track itself is routed to something that hits the mains. The send to the reverb is making it all the way, but sounds like the actual track is not. Been a while to remember X1, but the CbB advice above would be worth checking out.

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    #12
    chris.r
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/29 22:42:51 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    I am confused about how you could hear the reverb on the vocal without hearing the vocal.


    This can happen when reverb is used as insert effect with it's mix set fully on wet, or if vocal track's output (not send) goes directly to the reverb bus (and reverb's mix is full wet).
    #13
    Euthymia
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/30 04:25:13 (permalink)
    One of my tricks for trying to "find" a track that just won't allow itself to be heard no matter WTF I try is to look for something else (a track, bus or folder) that accidentally got solo'd. Basically go through my project and UNsolo everything.
     
    I know, it's weird, you can hear it playback, so what I'm saying doesn't seem likely, but still, nothing else you've tried is working, right?
     
    Maybe a bus? One hint is that your reverb send is working. It sounds like you're using a send bus to do your reverb, so there might be something over in Bus Land.
     
    I believe this one dates back to the invention of the "solo" button on physical consoles. :-)
     
    I'll second what brundlefly suggested about trying to route the track directly to the output. Put me in the camp who suspects routing or the wrong combination of mute(s) and solo(s) rather than a corrupted project.
     
    Also, I don't monitor through a separate outboard mixer or via my interface. I use Sends and create Cue Mix buses, which lets me set up and store as many custom cue mixes as I wish without having to touch the main faders.
     
    It requires a bit of sleuthing to find plug-ins that induce latency and therefore should be switched out while tracking, but Cakewalk (and yes, once you finish this session look into installing Cakewalk by BandLab) has a button that will bypass all of the effects in a project.

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    #14
    konradh
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/30 19:00:42 (permalink)
    Thanks for the kind advice.  To clarify: the track records fine and plays back fine.  It is only the monitoring during record that is messed up.
     
    I never use reverb as an insert on vocals: always a send to a reverb bus.
     
    I'm sure I will figure it out.  Thanks for all your time responding.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #15
    sock monkey
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/09/30 20:26:16 (permalink)
    TTo answer the question about how you can hear signals that are present both in a cue mixer and the interface. You need to be able to split the signal. 
    There are many ways to set this up. 
    Mike pre amps often have 2 outputs, one might be an XLR and the other a 1/4", so one gos to the interface the second to the mixer.
    Many mixers have direct record output for each channel so thois is a easy one.
    You can even double mike instruments, one mike records the other is just for the cue mixer. 
    DI boxes always have 2 outputs so Bass or acoustic guitar is easy to splt.
    I even use my Boss Tuner as it has 2 outputs. 
     
    But getting back to Konrad, You should really figure the direct monitoring system of the V studio. I would think it should work and might be something very simple you've missed. 
    There will always be latency when NOT using direct monitoring and the performance will be off time. 
    I would never engage the input echo when recording audio. Even if it's only 7 ms it bugs me, 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
    Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
      
    #16
    konradh
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    Re: Monitoring While Recording 2018/10/02 14:36:51 (permalink)
    Hello, Sock Monkey.
     
    After I finish the problematic song, I will see what's up with the direct monitoring.  I have been through the directions and steps several times and can never tell that anything happens, but I will start over from scratch and go through it methodically.  After that, maybe we can discuss results.
     
    Latency of any kind drives singers crazy.  I usually set ASIO buffering to the next-to-lowest number while recording (and the next-to-highest while mixing), but even with the low number, the latency is obvious.
     
    Thanks for answering.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #17
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