4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths

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bayn
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2005/06/09 04:23:03 (permalink)

4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths

Digital is a foreign language to me. I'm only experienced in direct analog recording. I promise after this, I'll study more like I did when I began recording in the first place. However, I need these few questions answered atleast, to cement my hardware decisions. Thanks for understanding.

1) Can you record stereo audio directly from an S/PDIF out on, say, a synth, to the S/PDIF in on your DAW's interface?

2) Is it really possible to have a virtual instrument (like PMI Bosendorfer 290 for instance) in my DAW, play it by playing a connected but separate keyboard - as if it were one of the keyboard's own sounds essentialy (WITHOUT having to hear the keyboard's own sounds overlaying the softsynth) - and actualy record the virtual instrument like I would normal audio?

3) Can you do the above via S/PDIF or any other digital interface, or does it absolutely require MIDI?

4) When using S/PDIF, MIDI, or other non-analog interfaces, does the instrument or device you're using to control the softsynth, or are recording from, need to match the sampling rate of the interface on your DAW? (i.e. do I need a keyboard capable of 192kHz to record digitaly at 24/192?)

Just need to make sure my hardware choices won't conflict with my intentions. Thanks - yet again. Sorry to be so n00bish. Lol. A week ago I felt like I was actualy becoming somewhat profficient in my own way - then I decided to go digital and it's back to the drawing board. Oh well, that's part of the journey.

*end of embarassing n00b questions*
post edited by bayn - 2005/06/09 04:25:11
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    MiWi
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 05:02:40 (permalink)
    I'm not the expert here, but I'm up so I'll give my answers.



    1) Yes, you can record stereo directly assuming your instrument has stereo out and you have two inputs into your sound card.

    2) I use virtual insruments all the time and control them via MIDI from my keyboard. You don't need to hear the keyboard's own sounds while doing this. Set up a MIDI track with it's input from the MIDI out of your keyboard and the output to your virtual synth. Set up an audio track with the output from your virtual synth as the input. Don't have the audio from the keyboard routed to an active track. Turn down the volume control on the keyboard, if you need to (if it has built in speakers, for instance). I'm using Sonar, by the way, but I assume all of the other Cakewalk sequencing products will allow the same.

    3) If you're triggering a virtual instrument from your keyboard, you need MIDI. Remember, MIDI is sending the key down, key up, velocity, aftertouch, pitch wheel, modulation, sustain, etc. It is not sending audio. Your virtual instrument will take this MIDI input to know when to play the note, stop the note, etc. S/PDIF, ADAT, and normal analog Audio are all audio information only and not used by the virtual instrument.

    4) MIDI is MIDI, so don't worry about the sample rates of the audio for that. S/PDIF and ADAT are digital audio and the rates must match. If your keyboard only supports 48k, then your project should be set at 48k and your sound card better be set to 48k. My keyboard only supports 44.1 and 48, so I tend to use the analog outs so I can set my project in Sonar to whatever I want. Also, the fact that my sound card doesn't have digital audio ports kind of limits me.

    ADAT is just another digital interface (I think it comes from Alesis for their original Digital Audio Tape). It is pretty widespread as is S/PDIF.

    By the way, there are no embarassing noob questions as long as you do your best to make your questions clear and organized. Every once in a while, an experienced person is having a bad day and you might see some rudeness. Ignore them. Virtually all of the people here have gone through this same learning curve. I'm still on the steep upward slope of this curve myself.


    Have fun

    edited to complete some sentences
    post edited by MiWi - 2005/06/09 05:16:50

    Mike

    #2
    bhd2vek
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 08:08:23 (permalink)
    1. Yes. Make sure your sample rates match on both ends.

    2. Yes. You would record the midi information and render the sound using a softsynth or sampler (or even an external keyboard). Once happy with the sounds, you bounce it to an audio track and you are set (in the case of a softsynth or sampler), or send the midi back out to your keyboard and record its audio out.

    3. Requires midi.

    4. To record the audio from the keyboard, you should have matched sample rates at both ends. To record the midi, no.
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    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 12:37:28 (permalink)
    Ah! Thank-you both very much. That's a big relief and definitely points me in what I hope is the right direction.

    After some research, I've decided the LynxTWO-B interface is the card I want. I've also narrowed my choice of a new keyboard down to two - The Kurzweil PC2X 88, and the CME UF8.

    There are just two remaining issues. To get more than one S/PDIF in with the Lynx card, I'll need to get the LS-AES expansion. Furthermore, Lynx says it's S/PDIF ins are transformer linked and require their XLR-to-S/PDIF RCA adapter cables. I've emailed them to ask this, but I'll ask here too just in case (two sources of confirmation are better than one). With Lynx's S/PDIF, will I be REQUIRED to use XLR out? And doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of digital I/O? So that's the first issue.

    The second issue is that The UF8 only has one S/PDIF out. I find it very enticing though, as it's much more affordable than the Kurzweil, and has full support for 192khz (something I haven't been able to find in any other keyboard made by any other manufacturer - atleast not that I can find on any of their websites). The Kurzweil on the other hand has two S/PDIF outs, but can only manage 48khz. So I guess my second issue/question is: For stereo, do you need two S/PDIF outs or can it somehow send the whole stereo signal through one wire (being digital, I don't know how advanced it's capabilities are so I hope it's capable of such magical powers lol)? If not, are there S/PDIF Y-adapters like I've always used for analog recording, and if so would that option degrade the quality of my recordings?

    If the Lynx demands XLR for S/PDIF recording of course, all of this is moot and I'll just use CME's 192KHz analog outs lol.

    Oh, one last thing. When you say
    2. Yes. You would record the midi information and render the sound using a softsynth or sampler (or even an external keyboard). Once happy with the sounds, you bounce it to an audio track and you are set (in the case of a softsynth or sampler), or send the midi back out to your keyboard and record its audio out.
    do you mean I would play the performance without hearing the virtual instrument, then render it into my mix? Or will I be able to play the keyboard, hear the virtual instrument in real time as I play, and record it in SONAR simultaniously? The latter is what I'm shooting for, if possible.

    Thanks again very much, and I really appreciate your acceptance of my neophyte-ism.
    post edited by bayn - 2005/06/09 12:41:14
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    SteveJL
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 12:52:46 (permalink)
    Lynx says it's S/PDIF ins are transformer linked and require their XLR-to-S/PDIF RCA adapter cables.

    I believe they are referring to AES/EBU here......a different digital connection using an XLR cable.


    For stereo, do you need two S/PDIF outs

    One S/PDif connection is capable of transmitting a stereo signal.

     
    #5
    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 13:01:08 (permalink)
    Really? Only one? YAY! Lol.

    What throws me off and makes me scared about the Lynx is this note in their specification sheet:


    Digital I/O

    Number: One input and one output
    Type: AES/EBU or S/PDIF format, transformer coupled, XLR connectors on L2Sync Cable


    That makes it sound like it's an S/PDIF RCA I/O that has selectable AES/EBU, and an XLR to RCA adapter - and the "transformer coupled" line makes me think it's not changeable or something. I don't know how to interpret this new terminology though, so I'll let you tell me what you think it means as I'm thoroughly confused.

    Thank-you for your reply!
    post edited by bayn - 2005/06/09 13:02:59
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    bhd2vek
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 13:23:31 (permalink)
    do you mean I would play the performance without hearing the virtual instrument, then render it into my mix? Or will I be able to play the keyboard, hear the virtual instrument in real time as I play, and record it in SONAR simultaniously? The latter is what I'm shooting for, if possible.


    In a nutshell, the setup would be something like this..

    - midi track getting input from your kb
    - softsynth or sampler getting input from that midi track
    - softsynth or sampler output through audio track

    Yes you would hear the sounds in realtime (plus latency). What you are recording is the midi data of your performance.

    Then you can play back that performance and tweak/change your softsynth all day long until you are happy.

    You then bounce to an audio track (render the midi data through the softsynth and record the audio).

    You can get rid of the softsynth and midi track at this point because you have the rendered audio.
    #7
    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 13:29:13 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: bhd2vek

    do you mean I would play the performance without hearing the virtual instrument, then render it into my mix? Or will I be able to play the keyboard, hear the virtual instrument in real time as I play, and record it in SONAR simultaniously? The latter is what I'm shooting for, if possible.


    In a nutshell, the setup would be something like this..

    - midi track getting input from your kb
    - softsynth or sampler getting input from that midi track
    - softsynth or sampler output through audio track

    Yes you would hear the sounds in realtime (plus latency). What you are recording is the midi data of your performance.

    Then you can play back that performance and tweak/change your softsynth all day long until you are happy.

    You then bounce to an audio track (render the midi data through the softsynth and record the audio).

    You can get rid of the softsynth and midi track at this point because you have the rendered audio.



    Ahh. Thanks. That makes alot of sense put in that way. (this to that to that to this - lol).

    The more I read about this subject, the more I am coming to understand it's all just about ins and outs, even in the software. It becomes much simpler to think about that way.

    If/when I can play my keyboard and hear superbly authentic sounding bosendorfer grand tones, I will be in tears lol. Thanks.

    Now all that remains is to confirm that I don't absolutely HAVE to use the LXRs (and can just use RCA to RCA) with the Lynx S/PDIF ins and I'm all set!
    post edited by bayn - 2005/06/09 13:42:02
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    ohhey
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 14:14:25 (permalink)
    Yep, that's the catch with SPDIF or any other digital interface you are stuck at the sample rate both the device (synth) and your sound card can do.
    #9
    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 15:56:39 (permalink)
    Yeah and you know the CME UF8 with 192khz I was so excited about? Well - it lacks polyphonic aftertouch. D'oh! Lol. Curses, foiled again.

    I don't suppose anyone here knows of a synth or digital piano with all of the following:

    192khz (I can live with 96khz though if need be)
    RCA S/PDIF out
    stereo 1/4" balanced analog outs
    graded hammer action & full weighted keys (I could live with semi-weighted if I ABSOLUTELY had to, but I don't like it as well)
    polyphonic aftertouch as opposed to just channel
    MIDI in and out (and through if possible but I don't anticipate a need for it based on what I've read so far)

    That UF8 would have been perfect if not for the lack of realistic aftertouch. :(
    post edited by bayn - 2005/06/09 15:58:33
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    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 17:46:51 (permalink)
    OK so, it looks like my only option might be to spend a BUTTLOAD on a Korg Triton Studio. I just need to know something. It says this in it's specs:


    Outputs
    Main = L/MONO, R,
    Individual = 1, 2, 3, 4,
    S/PDIF (optical 24 bits, 48/96 kHz),
    Headphones


    Inputs
    1, 2,
    Level Switch LINE/MIC,
    Level volume,
    S/PDIF (optical 24 bits, 48/96 kHz)



    And yet then it also says this:

    HI synthesis system
    48kHz Sampling frequency
    48Mbyte PCM ROM
    429 multisamples + 417 drum samples


    Which one determines whether or not I record from it digitaly at 24/96? (Please let it be the first one...please let it be the first one...)

    Also, in these contests which would sound the most pristine (I'm after clear and shiney but warm and not too digital-ish sounding... take into account the fact that most people say the Lynx sounds very analog-like even in digital):

    analog recording at 192khz vs digital recording at 96khz
    analog recording at 96khz vs digital recording at 48khz
    #11
    wogg
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/09 18:11:44 (permalink)
    Which one determines whether or not I record from it digitaly at 24/96? (Please let it be the first one...please let it be the first one...)


    Yes the first one would mean that the S/PDIF output is capable of sending a 96kHz signal, so your recording will be at 96k as well.

    The second means that the samples are actually 48kHz. There may not be any additional information to sample up there, so you may not benefit going to 96kHz, but you will cut your processing power in half.

    There's still argument over the sound improvement vs. performance penalty of high sample rates. What kind of PC are you planning on running all this with?

    Homepage:
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    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/10 00:09:02 (permalink)
    Keep in mind that this is preliminary - I'm poor as hell and I already have a decent DAW that I record analog to - this is a dream I'm planning for a year or so from now when these parts will be "old" and when I have a more stable life lol. I know that might seem silly, but it's kind of what's keeping me going - my passion for computers is almost equal to that for music - though I'm definitely not some kind of expert, I'm also not a complete nincompoop lol - I have some physical issues going on that I don't want to be a bleeding heart about that will delay this lol so - sufficed to say I'm 100% dedicated to doing this, regardless of how long it takes. It's a marathon not a sprint - two steps forward one step back and all of that. I'm going through a "getting my life in order" process involving school and doctors and yadda ya - this is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow I have promised myself for when I'm a healthier person who can work and pay for this with his own money instead of SSI or his Mom's tax refund. And I know I don't need all this to make my music sound good but ... it's my dream don't crush it lmao.

    Here's my future specs though - critical evaluations are welcome!

    Cooler Master CM Stacker server tower (this I already have - the best combination of sheer size and features I've ever seen - I have extremely silent fans replacing the ones it came with - "ultra silent" my ass by the way lmao - and dust filters on all of them)
    Seasonic S12-500 ATX12V 500W PSU
    ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe (Had the most RAID options, stability, and compatibility with the newer Athlon 64 X2s)
    Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (Based on the CPU benchmarks in this thread and on what was explained to me in this one combined with the fact that every benchmark done thusfar has shown the X2 4800+ to be signifigantly faster in multithreaded apps than any of the Opterons, until something better comes along this CPU should - atleast logicaly - allow for the lowest latency possible in Sonar).
    2GB (4x512MB) CORSAIR TWINX1024-3200XLPRO DDR400 (This is one of the models Corsair says has been extensively tested with this board, and ASUS lists it as being recommended. It runs at 2-2-2-5 timings).
    Two 250GB Western Digital Caviar SE16 SATA II hard disks in RAID 0 for OS and apps
    Ditto the above but in RAID 1 for primary storage
    One Seagate Barracuda 400GB hard disk for full system volume backups and extra storage for emergencies.
    Lynx L22 or TWO-B (I've settled on this - for now - based on what I've read here and across the net with respect to it's DMA performance and it's digital recording sounding pristine yet "analog-like" .. if anyone can suggest something better that isn't as expensive as MOTU's stuff, I'd appreciate any advice - it just needs to be comparable in I/O features to the Lynx)
    PCI - or, if they exist yet, PCI express x1 - MIDI interface (Haven't settled on a brand or model for this yet. If someone could recommend which PCI MIDI interface has the tightest timings under Windows XP Sonar 4, I'd be very grateful. MIDI interfaces outnumber even soundcards it seems, and wading through the hundreds of reviews is difficult - as is discerning fact from hype with respect to timings and latency claims on manufacturers websites)
    ViewSonic N2750w Black 27" 16:9 16ms LCD TV Monitor (if I'm gonna spend thousands of dollars anyway, I'm gonna have an LCD monitor with 16ms response time - provided it doesn't cost thousands itself, and this one is under a thousand lol).
    MSI RADEON X800XL 256MB PCI express 16x VGA card w/HDTV out (I meticulously compared performance of all the newer video cards - just as I did with the CPUs - and this was the best card that cost no more than $300.00 and could still run everything at my minimum acceptable fps in most settings - the MSI model also comes with a software bundle which includes Restore It 3 Professional which unlike Windows restore actualy backs up all of your files regardless of their source - with that, plus the fifth storage drive for normal backups, plus the RAID 1 set up, I'll have some reasonable redundancy).
    ATI Silencer 5 replacement VGA cooler to quiet it down
    Plextor SATA 150 PX-716SA SATA DVD+R/RW CD-R/RW drive
    Sonar 4 Producer Edition (Part of my life-fixing project includes college and one of the courses I'm going to take as soon as I finish the prerequisites are sound design and digital audio production - otherwise I wouldn't even consider PE and would just get Sonar 4 - I know I don't know jack yet really lol).
    EDIT: forgot to mention - Grace Designs V3 preamp (I HATE it when I sing and I get my voice to a place I feel good about, which is hard for me, and then on playback the preamps on my Behringer Eurorack have made it sound noticeably different irrespective of any amount of EQ - on the mixer or in Home Studio. If I understand correctly, this Grace preamp wouldn't have that problem, and has 96khz S/PDIF out to boot).

    How's it look? I know better things will be out by the time I get to the point where this is possible, but I don't need the absolute best of tomorrow - just the best of today (which, by then, will be yesterday - that confused me lmao). Anyway, it's good enough for me and should give me DAMN low latency if I've understood correctly. Have I?
    post edited by bayn - 2005/06/10 00:19:30
    #13
    KitC
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/10 07:18:15 (permalink)
    WOW! Your pc specs look like a monster of a GAMING rig. To paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, "Games are games and DAWs are DAWS, and never the twain shall meet."

    Kit
    S4.0.4PE, S5.2PE, S6.2.1PE, P5V2.5
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    #14
    bayn
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    RE: 4 more simple n00b questions: direct S/PDIF recording & softsynths 2005/06/10 13:05:44 (permalink)
    Lol, yeah I know they shouldn't but I figure as long as I optimize everything for good DMA performance, give certain IRQs preferential treatment and make sure I'm getting low latency, it'll balance out if I play my cards right. I used to be terrified to play games on my current DAW, but much to my astonishment, now I surf the net and play Doom 3 and it doesn't effect my audio performance at all. The main problem is that my C drive fills up to fast (it's presently only a 37GB drive) hence those 250GB SATA II drives in the new one. I'd go for SCSI but try finding a board that supports the X2 chips that also has onboard SCSI support lmao.
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