Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions

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blueyonder
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2005/06/11 16:34:33 (permalink)

Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions

Hi

I'd like to thank every one who helped me with the questions on my last post .I have found the problem of the broadcast wave import.It only works at 24 bit,unfortunately all my projects are done at 32 bit BW and the files wont import at their propper time stamps,this is something i think needs addressing along with being able to import other of the more popular DAW formats i.e. SD11,AIFF etc if Sonar is going to be playing in the premier league.

I did talk about the PDC and how I found I couldnt reset it to new teleported LAN latency's when changed.I described how in SX or Nuendo there is an on/off switch which will reset any new changes and more importantly means you can track a VSTI without the PDC adding large latency,which brings me to quite a big show stopper.

OK you are mid way through a project you have 20 audio tracks,4 sub groups and 4 FX sends.On one of the sends is SIR with a nice 960 reverb chamber with a few tracks sent to it.Now you decide you want to add a fender rhodes from say lounge lizzard so you add it to the DXI rack arm yhhour midi track and start to play..........OH no MASSIVE latency because the PDC is calculating the delay introduced by the SIR which is large,now in SX/N3 I would just switch off PDC while I tracked the rhodes and then back on again afterwards.There is no way of doing this in SONAR how do you play virtual instruments in this scenario? If it were just a single send and no other FX then I could just turn off the SIR,but ANY FX be that a send or an insert will need calculating for by the PDC so it is impossible to turn off every FX in the project.

How do you guys get round this?most Pro musicians are very intollerant to latency and rightly so but as I said before PDC delays everything by the amount of the most latent plugg in the project regardless of your audio buffer size,you could be working at 1.5 ms but as soon as you add an FX with a large latency then thats what you have to deal with if you cant turn PDC off.

TIA

Blue

post edited by blueyonder - 2005/06/11 16:37:45
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    nprime
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/11 16:41:24 (permalink)
    Would disabling all FX have the same net effect as turning off the PDC?

    When you turn off the PDC doesn't everything sound all screwed up?

    R

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    #2
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/11 16:51:18 (permalink)
    Yes turning off all fx would have the same end result,is there a way to do this in SONAR with one click? Yes indeed it does change the sound of things,but to be honest it doesnt matter that much compared to being unable to play an instrument in time.

    Maybee i'm an old fart because i actually play things rather than just importing loops and it is vital to capture a performance with feel for me and I'm not a fan of quantize so therefore latency or lack of is critical when tracking midi instruments


    I'm surprised no ones mentioned this before
    #3
    Alndln
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 03:07:41 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: blueyonder

    in SX/N3 I would just switch off PDC while I tracked the rhodes and then back on again afterwards.There is no way of doing this in SONAR
    I'm pretty sure you can disable PDC in the VST-DX adapters properties page on whatever plugin you want.I haven't had to do this myself as I'm not getting any latencey problems with the particular VSTi's that I'm using.Also in the past I did have problems with SIR the aux bus in any app Iv'e tried,but I don't use it anymore and use Waves IR-1 instead which has no latencey problems in any bus with Sonar.Make sure you have the latest VST-Adapter update as I'm pretty sure disabling PDC on individual plugs was introduced in the latest version.
    post edited by Alndln - 2005/06/12 03:10:56
    #4
    John
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 04:09:59 (permalink)
    I use a mixer and never use effects while tracking. I get a mix that has no latency this way. After I have done all the recording I apply effects as needed.
    By the way my mixer has effects as well and I can use them for my monitoring if I wish. They are not recorded. If I am running a softsynth then I may use effects sometimes. Not often though. I guess it is a question of how one works. As to the general problem of latency in Sonar as long as I am not using input monitoring then it is no problem at all. It is very low with no input monitoring. If you are tracking you really don't need effects.

    Best
    John
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    daverich
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 08:24:49 (permalink)
    Just right click on the fx bin and Bypass Bin.

    Re-enable when done.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

    For Sale - 10.5x7ft Whisperroom recording booth.

    http://www.daverichband.com
    http://www.soundclick.com/daverich
    #6
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 09:26:09 (permalink)
    Dave ,I know i can bypass the fx that way but you have to do that for every FX in the project to get your latency back to the soundcard buffer.I probably didnt use the term quite right when I said tracking,I probably mean overdubbing i.e. when a project is already well on the way with FX etc and you are adding/Trying new things, without being able to turn off all the fx globaly or turn off PDC (same thing) then you're knackered if you have anything which is vey latent in the project.

    remember I'm not knocking here I'm trying to find a way of working with Sonar.I could use SIR on my teleport computer as i do now but without sonar being able to recalculate the latency when its been increased in teleport to a larger buffer then its unusable.

    At the moment in SX/Nuendo I keep my system latency very small but in teleport I use a large buffer to make sure I get no drop outs etc and it works great as nuendo's PDC will calculate whatever latency i set.Sonars PDC is fixed for teleport though at 2x the system latency which is too small.
    Hope this sheds some light on why I'm struggling to do a project at the moment in Sonar.

    Using a mixer wouldnt make any difference in this scenario,its about the fundamental aspects of working with PDC.

    cheers
    #7
    thunderkyss
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 09:29:25 (permalink)
    How about the freeze function??

    #8
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 09:46:23 (permalink)
    Freeze!!!! you havent read my post,
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    daverich
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 09:50:09 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: blueyonder

    Dave ,I know i can bypass the fx that way but you have to do that for every FX in the project to get your latency back to the soundcard buffer.I probably didnt use the term quite right when I said tracking,I probably mean overdubbing i.e. when a project is already well on the way with FX etc and you are adding/Trying new things, without being able to turn off all the fx globaly or turn off PDC (same thing) then you're knackered if you have anything which is vey latent in the project.

    remember I'm not knocking here I'm trying to find a way of working with Sonar.I could use SIR on my teleport computer as i do now but without sonar being able to recalculate the latency when its been increased in teleport to a larger buffer then its unusable.

    At the moment in SX/Nuendo I keep my system latency very small but in teleport I use a large buffer to make sure I get no drop outs etc and it works great as nuendo's PDC will calculate whatever latency i set.Sonars PDC is fixed for teleport though at 2x the system latency which is too small.
    Hope this sheds some light on why I'm struggling to do a project at the moment in Sonar.

    Using a mixer wouldnt make any difference in this scenario,its about the fundamental aspects of working with PDC.

    cheers



    By the way I bought the Voxengo alalogflux suite and use the impulse plug. You can get latency right down with that plug. Pristine space is a more involved version and both go down to 1.5ms latency.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich.

    For Sale - 10.5x7ft Whisperroom recording booth.

    http://www.daverichband.com
    http://www.soundclick.com/daverich
    #10
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 10:25:07 (permalink)
    Thanks Dave,

    I've just been to your studio site,nice place Devon is a lovely part of the world too.I can see that sonar works well for you,I think my initial issues are because I have a powerful multi computer set up which works well,I use my Nuendo machine like a'tape recorder,editor,midi editor and i use my 2nd and 3 rd machines as a sampler and VSTI and impulse reverb machines which makes for a powerful set up.I would rather work with 1 machine if that were possible which is why i took a look at sonar,as if it can use the 4 processors of a dual x2 or dual core opteron rig then that would be great.I aslo have all my outboard patched into nuendo as well,which works great and PDC works on that too.Once set up all my externall stuff ,reverbs,compressors etc apear in my VST pluggins menu,cool feature eh!

    I havent given up on sonar though as it has some great things,I'm going to keep an eye on it and see what verion 5 can bring to the table.
    I might be back with some more questions
    post edited by blueyonder - 2005/06/12 10:29:12
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    mb
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 10:41:32 (permalink)
    Blueyonder

    I dont get it !!

    Why are you using Sx3 and Nuendo 3 and Sonar ?

    Are you thinking of dumping Nuendo 3 / SX3 for Sonar 4 ?....WHY ?

    Are you using VST SYSTEM link at the moment with Nuendo 3 and SX3 ?...on 2 machines....???? What spesifically gives you problems in N3 and Sx3 ?

    You would know that you can run VST system link on 2 machines one for N3 and the other Sx ...

    ....timing is everything in life....
    #12
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 11:32:06 (permalink)
    Mb,

    I thought I'd give Sonar a whirl because after some discussion on the Nuendo forum regarding the state of play with the new dual core cpu's from intel and AMD.Basicall it seems that SX/N3 will not run on a dual core/dual system or a hyperthreaded dual system.Now as we are all after as much horse power as we can get this has become an issue for some users as Steinberg hasnt comented on why this is or what they are going to do about it.It was pointed out that Sonar worked fine an a dual hyperthread system splitting across 4 virtual cores so it should then work on 4 ACTUAL cores.
    I can see that as a software company having to code for 2 different platforms takes up large resources and that Sonar has an advantage in that direction hence the reason they are maybe more on the boil with current 64 bit,dual core issues.As a Native user I want to be able to use the latest most powerfull systems other wise I'd use pro tools TDM.

    I'm just trying sonar out with the intention of keeping an eye in it,software is software, I could learn another program like Sonar pretty quickly if i used it every day (unlike Logic which is an oxymoron in my book) so if in the future Steinberg doesnt get its self together and sonar does then yes I'd change,they're only tools

    cheers
    #13
    mb
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 11:50:50 (permalink)
    ok

    got it now !!

    i am a Sx3 user and Sonar 4 > but still its very early days regarding 64 bit machines.

    have you tried VST system link with both aplications running on 2 seperate machines...you will by far get more power than trying to run Sonar standalone on a Dual

    there are many more advantages Nuendo and Sx3 has over Sonar at the moment apart from the fact that Sonar has the upper hand regarding 64 bit. Nuendo audio engine is the best out there and that is more important to some than running 64 bit at the moment in Sonars non gapless audio engine.

    also it takes a long time to learn nuendo and sx3 well and you will waist time learning sonar now for only 1 feature...and steinberg will follow 64 bit very soon....just wait a bit i will say

    but by all means if your unhappy with n3 / sx3 check out sonar 4 !!

    how much RAM are you using in your DAW's ?

    ....timing is everything in life....
    #14
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 12:30:25 (permalink)
    System link has hardly ever worked for me on 3 different systems,also you are having to save a project on 2 different computers which is a pain,with teleport everything opens inside the one computer project.

    Sonar has some good things that I liked straight away.as I use BFD a lot its nice to be able to bounce all 17 tracks to audio in one go,in Nuendo you have to do it a track at a time.The freeze function works better in Sonar too.I also like the fact I can use keyboard commands on the mixer, going to wide or narrow view for example,in Nuendo you cant asign a key command for that.

    I will write a little comparison next week when I've given Sonar a thorough going over,

    watch this space
    #15
    blueyonder
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    RE: Nuendo user,few more issues and solutions 2005/06/12 12:32:26 (permalink)
    p.s. I'm not unhappy with SX/N£ I'm just having a look at the competition

    I've got 3 gigs of ram in 1 machine,1.5. gigs in another and 1 gig in the 3rd, oh and 768 in my laptop
    #16
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