Hi all,

Having fiddled with Samplitude V6 for two years off and on, I recently bought Sequoia.

I'll be doing MIDI in SONAR 4, rendering to audio, then exporting wave files for mixing in Sequoia.

I find that, except for the Lexicon, the ffects in Samp/Seq less "cluttering" than in Sonar (Waves, Sonitus, Cakewalk).

The mixing and editing in Samp/Seq is pure sex. It's an approach which takes a bit of getting used to, but when you get it .... Slurrrp!

Also, it's nice to have Sonar (mixing, that is), SoundForge and CD Architect all in the same place, complete with CD text, Cd testing/comparing/error checking ....

Pure sex ....

I'll say thanks a million to jp11 too for all the trouble he went to. For what it worth I have run Sonar since v1 moving over from Cubase VST as soon as Sonar was available. Shortly after upgrading to v4.02(producer) I downloaded a copy of Samplitude (v7x at the time) just to see what it was like. To save time I imported a wave file (stereo master) that I had done in Sonar a few days previously. On playing back the file it sounded different - not really sure why - or that it was better - just different. I had no fx or eq switched on.

On reflection, one thing that I recall reading in the manual is that Samplitude does its normalisation in realtime during playback (correct me if I'm wrong) so it may be that it was something like this that was changing the sound.

Whatever - I'm still with Sonar because it's midi and vsti support still seems better. That said I found Samplitude very easy to work with.

I agree that SAM 8 is a fine program. It's got a few quirks to iron out, but a patch is in the works I understand. (I own a license.)

And yes, *for whatever the reason* #1 in the mix test sounded clearer and more "present."

However, remember the Code Meter (dongle): if it goes, you're out of luck for a few days at least.

And it's a matter of your working style. If either program inspires you--or enables you in any way to create better music, then that's the program to use. I'd rather create a masterpiece using a Tascam than a dog using Sequoia. (Well that's overstated, but you get my drift.)

I've finished a mix using Samp 6 and am in the process of mixing in Sonar 4. Different methodology.

Samp has much much deeper editing tools and some really cool features I'd love to see in Sonar. Such as Mix to File which allows you to play the project and record the mix realtime. Makes for good quick & dirty mixdowns or other options since both written automation and real time changes on the mixer are in the mix.

ORIGINAL: UnderTow


The waves arn't even synced (Mix 5 is out of sync). There is something seriously wrong with the methodology ...

A while back I did a DAW sum test with some people. (Logic, Samplitude, Cubase SX, CoolEdit, Ableton and FruityLoops). All the mixess zero-summed (phase reversing the audio files against each other giving files full of zeros) except FruityLoops which had some noticable errors in the summing. If I remember correctly, there was stuff left over above 16Khz plus a DC offset after zero summing the FruitLoops mix with the other mixes.

UnderTow

I think you are wrong about Mix 5 being out of sync. (one of the files may be out of sync, but that's not my fault, that's the way that app works).

Some of these do phase reverse to zero, some don't, why that is, I don't know...either I made a mistake, or maybe they sum differently, I don't know...there are lots of reasons that may cause the files not to cancel completely...for example, 2 apps might phase reverse to zero if they are both set to a 0 pan law, but then you set them to a -3 pan law, and they don't. There must be a slightly different method of implementing the pan law.

Or maybe it's all my fault...certainly I may have bugs but these apps never do...

I don't claim that my test is 100% perfect, I did the best I could...I believe it's a fair example of each of these DAWs...

Besides that, it's not about phase reversing anyway, it's about using your ears. You didn't say whether you heard a difference or not. If 2 apps don't cancel out, but you don't really feel one sounds better than the other (the reaction of many), then what difference does it make?

If you did a test that's better than post it up...saying you did a test and telling us what the results are means nothing...let's hear it...one of my points is to stop making claims and to post up what you are basing those claims on.

Please post the test (and add Sonar, please), and tell us your complete methodology...what kind of files, how were they recorded, how did you bounce them down, did you set everything at zero or did you match volumes and pans? What versions did you use? You must have the files from the test...please post them up. The more tests we have, the better, right?

I don't claim that my test is the last word, the ultimate definitive perfect test...I just wanted to do something to find out whether it's true that one app sounds better than another, as people continue to claim. Samplitude themselves continue to claim their app sounds better on their website!! So please post your test to help prove the truth!!!

The ironic thing is people make claims all the time, and that's fine, no one bats an eye. But you put up an actual test, and all of a sudden people start slamming you, and start questioning everything. Is that not a flawed methodology?

Instead of doing a test, I should have just said "The app I use rocks!! I think it's awesome and superior and sounds better and is better than all the other crappy apps!!". Than, no one would knock me or my frickin' methodology.

You're absolutely right, Bill, thanks.

Having said that, I went and did another test . For those interested, go here:

Mix Bus test #2

ORIGINAL: JP11

ORIGINAL: UnderTow


The waves arn't even synced (Mix 5 is out of sync). There is something seriously wrong with the methodology ...

A while back I did a DAW sum test with some people. (Logic, Samplitude, Cubase SX, CoolEdit, Ableton and FruityLoops). All the mixess zero-summed (phase reversing the audio files against each other giving files full of zeros) except FruityLoops which had some noticable errors in the summing. If I remember correctly, there was stuff left over above 16Khz plus a DC offset after zero summing the FruitLoops mix with the other mixes.

UnderTow

Besides that, it's not about phase reversing anyway, it's about using your ears. You didn't say whether you heard a difference or not. If 2 apps don't cancel out, but you don't really feel one sounds better than the other (the reaction of many), then what difference does it make?

If the files zero sum on phase reverse it means that the files are IDENTICAL. So if you hear any difference, it is purely subjective and irrelevant.

If you did a test that's better than post it up...saying you did a test and telling us what the results are means nothing...let's hear it...one of my points is to stop making claims and to post up what you are basing those claims on.

Please post the test (and add Sonar, please), and tell us your complete methodology...what kind of files, how were they recorded, how did you bounce them down, did you set everything at zero or did you match volumes and pans? What versions did you use? You must have the files from the test...please post them up. The more tests we have, the better, right?

The test consisted of 16 stereo tracks of 24 bit 44.1Khz audio (electronic music) that summed to -1 dB when mixed.
(The recording method is irrelevant in a summing test. The exact same files where used in all DAWs). Pan laws where chosen to be the same, all faders at zero, no processing.

We did 2 tests actually, one with dither turned on and one with dither turned off (where possible). With the dither turned off, the outputs were all identical except for FruityLoops. With the dither turned on, there was residue noise from the dither left over after phase reversing. All the dither noise was at arround -140 dB FS as was expected except in one candidate that didn't seem to add dither when going from 32 bit Float to 24 bit fixed maths. I can't remember which one it was anymore ...

I don't claim that my test is the last word, the ultimate definitive perfect test...I just wanted to do something to find out whether it's true that one app sounds better than another, as people continue to claim. Samplitude themselves continue to claim their app sounds better on their website!! So please post your test to help prove the truth!!!

Unfortunately, the whole website is offline now (the whole server actually) and I don't have a local copy.

Anyway, for the final sound, the person doing the mixing is a thousands times more important than the choice of application. Unless you are into marketing. ;)

UnderTow

ORIGINAL: UnderTow

ORIGINAL: JP11

Besides that, it's not about phase reversing anyway, it's about using your ears. You didn't say whether you heard a difference or not. If 2 apps don't cancel out, but you don't really feel one sounds better than the other (the reaction of many), then what difference does it make?

If the files zero sum on phase reverse it means that the files are IDENTICAL. So if you hear any difference, it is purely subjective and irrelevant.



UnderTow

Yes, but not every DAW nulls out...in which case you have to use your ears...

You said that these all should null out, so if they don't, I must have made a mistake...my point is, even if I did, but as many people can't hear a difference as those who can, then what difference does the lack of nulling out make, or the mistake, if there is one.