Instrument Definitions

I posted this is the Sonar forum but have not gotten a response. Even though I know Music Creator does not have the ability to import instrument definitions I thought maybe someone here might be able to help. Below is my post:

OK. I’ve done my forum searches on “Instrument Definitions” and read both the Sonar manual and Sonar 4 Power but I’m still not getting this. I’m hoping someone can shed some light and end my confusion or at least point me to where I can find the information I need.

I’m trying to create songs using MIDI tracks. Then send the MIDI data to my Yamaha PSR-520 keyboard. And then send the audio out of my keyboard and into my soundcard for recording onto an audio track. Pretty simple procedure. I can, and have, done this many times using General MIDI. (Mostly for drum tracks.) But I’m trying something different this time.

I have downloaded and imported the Instrument Definitions for my Yamaha PSR-520.

In the assign instruments window, I have selected “Uses Instrument” Yamaha PSR-520 for all of the 16 output channels.

I have set up a MIDI track and selected the following options in the track:

Channel 1:Yamaha PSR-520
Bank 0-Yamaha PSR-520
Patch 12: Harpsichord

Here’s the problem:

The sounds produced through the speakers of my keyboard (as well as the sounds being sent from the audio out of my keyboard) are not the sounds that I have selected in the Patch option of the MIDI track. For example the 12:Harpsichord that was selected as the Patch for the MIDI track produces a Vibraphone sound.

I believe the sounds being produced are from the GM instrument definitions and not from the Yamaha PSR-520 instrument definitions that I’ve selected in the MIDI track as shown above.

I was under the impression that if I imported the instrument definitions for my Yamaha keyboard that I would be able to select and use the sounds as they appear in the Patch selection option of the MIDI track by using the imported Yamaha PSR-520 instrument definitions.

Was I mistaken in my impression about the use of instrument definitions or have I missed something more that I need to do? Perhaps it’s a setting on my keyboard that needs to be changed. I have the keyboard’s “Local” setting turned off. If “Local” is turned on I then get two instrument sounds at once.

Maybe importing Instrument Definitions only imports a list of what is on my keyboard and not the actual data required to make my keyboard respond the way I’m expecting it to?

Hey Pete,

This is OT, but have you checked out Sonar 5? It's pretty cool. That being said, I've got no clue how to work instrument defs. Glad I could help...

Joe

Let we the blind continue an attempt at leading the blind.
I have never tried to control an external device Peter. It just wasn't something I had needed. Usually I was looking to bring a sound into MC.

I think your assumption is correct however. Your program should be able to control your external MIDI device - at least with Sonar. You have seen Cakewalk's page on Instrument Definition I assume http://www.cakewalk.com/support/docs/instrumentdef.asp

Even with the instrument definitions installed you still may have to set up a bank or patch within the program. I'll keep looking. It seems to me that there should be some sort of information on device control in the manual or help file. However, I know how detail oriented you are and that you have probably already been there.

The only way I can relate the bank change idea [and I may be way off base here.] - Years ago when I used Cakewalk Pro with a Creative AW-32 sound card I could set up different banks within the card so that I could access different sounds that were included with the soundcard. I suspect that you need to find the bank or specific area that holds the sound on your playback device [keyboard] and issue some sort of bank change in Sonar that accesses that area. - Now does that prove that I don't know if what I am saying has any validity?

After all - that's what midi started out to be - a way to control device playback of digital music. Most of us today are so used to our soundcard for playback that we forget about external midi devices.

Keep smilin' - Keep tryin'

patch 129 is Flibbity Flop

Have you been looking at my keyboard...?

Hi folks,
Sorry it took me so long to respond. Preparing for the holidays has dampened my merry music making.

milleribill:
I believe that the patches and banks have all been set up and taken care of when I installed the instrument definitions for my keyboard. I can see them there, and I can also select them in the track. I just can't get them to work. I can get the keyboard to play the GM sounds only. Just as if I never installed the instrument definitions at all.

Robo:
Thanks. I,m pretty sure that the instrument definitions that I installed already have the required patch change instructions set up for me. I believe that was the whole purpose of installing the instrument definitions in the first place instead of creating them all myself. (In fact Sonar ships with these instrument definitions. You have to select the ones you want from a file and install them, but they come with the program.)

I'm thinking that the problem lies within my keyboard settings. My keyboard is fairly complex and is almost as difficult to learn as Sonar. I'm going to lay it to rest until after the holidays since I really don't have time to properly focus right now. I'll pick it up again after New Years and let you know how it goes.

Pete's Flibbity Flop ----- Out LOL

millerbill:

I can't freakin' believe it! It worked!

Now the sounds match the Yamaha PSR-520 Instrument Definitions that I downloaded into Cakewalk and I can play all the sounds on my keyboard. Whoopee!!

Thanks.

The sounds however do not sound quite the same. It's as if some of the preset effects of each sound (the ones set on the keyboard ie: reverb, chorus, etc.) have been been changed. They still play the same if I keep the LOCAL setting of the keyboard turned to ON but then I get each sound twice (although they are simulatneous.) This happens because two signals are being send to the keyboard. Once from the MIDI from the computer and once from the keys of the keyboard. So that's why it's best to turn the LOCAL setting on the keyboard to the OFF position. But as I stated before, when this is done the sounds do not have the same "punch" to them. Sounds kinda like maybe the effects on the keyboard are more dry than wet, or maybe some effects have been eliminated altogether.

I tried doing a Bulk Send and an Initial Data send to see if that would help but it didn't.

There's probably another step that needs to be done.

I'm happy that I got this far but would be nice to have the sounds play with the keyboard's preset effects to them because it makes them sound more realistic. Worst case scenario would be for me to manually add the effects into the Cakewalk track after recording which would not be too difficult.

Actually I've now spent 4 hours today just to get this far and can't spend any more time today without getting into a domestic squabble. LOL Yes dear..... In a minute dear.... I'm coming dear.... Almost finished dear....

So I'll have to pick this up another time. And since tomorrow I have family in for the holidays it might have to wait until after New Years.

Thanks for getting me to this point. I would never have found that information without you. You've been a huge help. Thanks again.

Edit: BTW it appears you have to go through this entire process everytime you set up a new MIDI track. However I suppose I can clone a MIDI track if I'm working within the same project. And if I'm working in a new project I can copy and paste the information from the MIDI track of the old project into a MIDI track of the new project. A bit of a hastle but nice to be able to play all the sounds that are specific only to my particular keyboard.

I've been recording these unique sounds by recording on an audio track. But by using this feature I can record onto a MIDI track and change sounds in a project without having to re-record the entire performance. Hey, Re-record sounds redundant. Shouldn't you have to Cord before you Record?