ASIO/WDM Problems

Personally, I think it's the USB mouse that's causing your problem...

I'm not familiar with the FCA202 Firewire, did the ASIO drivers come with this device, or are you using 3rd party ASIO?

If the answer is A), then I might suggest you try ASIO4ALL

My next question is - you state that you have an nvidia onboard sound card as well. Are you certain that you are using the FCA202 and NOT the nvidia? This may be a no-brainer to you, but if you aren't sure, check the OPTIONS>AUDIO>DRIVERS and make sure that the FCA202 is highlighted and NOT the nvidia. In fact, I would even go into the Windows Hardware and DISABLE the nvidia card if I were you.

Once again, Robo, you have taught me something new! I did not realize that ASIO was actually a fakeout for WDM! Thanks!

Wow! My two heroes in this forum, both answering my post!! Can life get better? I submit to you that it cannot!!

But seriously folks, I lurked in this forum for a couple of weeks, reading all that I thought related to my problem before posting.

The FCA202 is working, but isn't using the ASIO driver. When I select ASIO in MC Audio Properties, it doesn't work. When I select WDM, it doesn't work properly (it won't track with the playback and won't play MIDI at all, just the audio tracks). When I select MME, it works, but the audio I record consistently lags behind the MIDI.

Beagle, Behringer supposedly shipped ASIO with the unit, which I installed. Having read your wisdom from other posts, I downloaded and tried ASIO4ALL, and it didn't work. Also, I usually disable the NVIDIA driver in the audio props when using the Behringer to avoid conflicts.

Robo, the Behringer is a *firewire* card. It works, but just not with ASIO. Unless I have carelessly overlooked something, everything is set as it should be, but ASIO still no workee!! I suppose I shouldn't complain, for it is at least working/recording/playing back via MME.

I have experimented with the sample rates and am careful to see that they agree (the Behringer control panel and MC audio props).

Now, in light of all this, I have two questions remaining. Shower me with your wisdom, if you will.

1. Is it possible, yea, even probable, that the Behringer ASIO driver is a buggy, early version. As I mentioned, this is the first device of this type that Behringer has made. Should I hope for a fix and deal with MME until then? (BTW, before buying this card, I e-mailed Behringer and asked if this card was compatible with SONAR. They assured me that it was.)

2. Will ASIO minimize/obliterate the offset between MIDI and audio? Is this a typical latency issue?

I realize that technically there are more than two questions stated, but I tried to categorize topically .

Thanks for all your help.

Robo - yes, I understand - I mistyped and should have said ASIO4ALL instead of ASIO when talking about it being a WDM faker. Sorry.

JR - I don't see where you said you did the first thing that Robo asked, maybe I missed it. He said to check the sampling rate on both the sound card and on MC. If they are not the same, or if your sound card's software doesn't allow MC to control the rate, then you will have a sync problem.

P.S. - thanks for the praise, but I'm actually a NEWBIE myself and there are a LOT of things I don't know. Robo deserves the praise - he's the veteran and very knowledgable about all things Cake! (Rob - you can send your check or money order to... )

If the sound card aplet and the program are set to the same sampling rate then that would not be the issue.

If you are using wdm then there is no built in synth in windows, so softsynths must be used,

Read this tutorial and see what applies to you

Using soft synths

When using midi tracks in CAKEWALK or any sequencer, there are many way to reproduce the sound from the midi data. One can use an internal synth on the sound card, or inside XP there is Microsoft synth GS, or you can route thru a soft synth that you download or install, some are synths, some are samplers, others use sound fonts, each has unique capabilities that you can use to reproduce midi data into sound.

Cakewalk only uses DX type instruments as synths unless one installs a wrapper type program, these allow you to use VST instruments and effects, VST is a trademark that comes from cubase, and anyone who makes a program that uses VST technology must gain access to that from Cubase, Cakewalk uses DX technology that is from Microsoft development. So keep in mind that at first you need to obtain effects and instrument that are designed with DX technology.

In order to use soft synths to replay a midi file you will need to play them through an audio track, this will allow the midi to be routed through a soft synth and produce an audible output. Here is what you need to do, and for this tutorial we will use Edirol VSC (VSC stands for Virtual Sound Canvas) but for all intents and purposes, this will work with any DX instrument, and at the end I will post links to several that you can down load.

First let’s go to a midi download site and down load a file, then we will open it in CAKEWALK and process it. Go to this site http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/creed90952/index.htm?mtbrand=AOL_US

Go down the page and find the eagles best of my love file, we will use this as the example, right click the file and then click save as target, save this file in a folder you are familiar with, then a pop up box will appear, that with ask you to open , click cancel.

Now open CAKEWALK and go to file and then click open, the open box will allow you to find the folder that you saved the file in( the file name is bestlove.mid), then when you do double click it, it should open in CAKEWALK. Now you will have a file that has 10 tracks of midi, there will be one track that say words on it, ignore it. Now under the last track that is named “Ride”, place your cursor and right click, a box will pop up go up and chose “insert audio track”, maximize that audio track by clicking the double box icon next to the MSR on the track, then right click the fx box and chose Dx Instruments, (or DX synths for some version) and click on Edirol VSC, Edirol will pop up close it for now, minimize the track again, and then maximize each midi track one at a time and left click each output box and chose Edirol VSC as the output, then minimize each until all of them have Edirol as the output device. Now hit play, and the file should play thru Edirol.

Okay let’s learn to change up the sounds in Edirol a bit, go to the audio track that has Edirol in it and maximize it again, double click on edirol and it should pop up into view. Each track has been assigned to an instrument, this is because Edirol acts like a GM/GS synth like the one on the sound card, but with a little bit better tones. At the bottom of Edirol is a button called setup, click that and a box will open, change the generator tones to GS from GM, and slide the polyphony bar to 128 and hit okay. and then move Edirol down just a bit hit play again Now notice that you can adjust the panning, volume, reverb, expression, delay and chorus so if you want adjust a couple of those as the song plays.

Now that is the basics, you can use any DX instrument to do this depending on it’s personal attributes, some only do one track, other do many. If you want more than one synth, then open more than one audio track to hold them. You might want edirol to do everything but the drums and guitar and use sampletank for those, then open two one for each.

To get more synths go here http://www.kvraudio.com/ go to the side and see a box that has the words instruments, effects, host, etc. and click that then go down to advanced search, in box 1. click on instruments, go down further and find 2. and click DX, then down to 3 and click only Windows, then to 4. and click only free, then down to search. There should be 5 on the list go to sampletank, sonic synth, synth 1 and triangleII download each of these and they will work with CAKEWALK be careful to follow the instructions for each carefully, this will take some time be patient, this will set you up for some great sounds.

Okay here is the dealio, as i see it, the behringer interface is audio only and the NVIDA is a video card from what i can found out by searching. When one tries to mix the two worlds into one something has to give, gaming systems usualy do not make good recording studios.

But having said that i do not think that the issues is just the behringer conflicting with the NVIDA card, your computer also has a built in sound card and that maybe part of the problem, you are connecting the behringer mixer to the behringer firewire card and that should work, but the firewire card has no midi inputs so then you have the sound card set to play midi most likely and the behringer to play audio, sometimes two sound card/interfaces do not play well together, also ASIO will not work on two devices at the same time. Bear with me as i am only guessing as to what is actually setup in the system.

Here is my suggestion, if you are going to use a firewire or USB interface get one that does both audio or midi, or one that has more mature drivers. Your system should work fine and the NVIDA video card should not conflict unless the IRQ address for the video and the audio are that same. If there is a way to return the behringer i would, if not then you need to maybe disable the onboard sound card and see if that clears stuff up.

Try attaching the behringer mixer directly to the onboard sound card as follows
; line out on the sound card to the tape in on the mixer, then main out on the mixer to line in on the card, depress the to control room button on the mixer and attach the computer speakers to the control room out and the headphone if used to the headphone jack on the mixer, then change the audio in and out in MC to the onboard sound card and retry the WDM driver mode and see if the thing runs better, remember that if you want to play midi then you must use a softsynth like edirol to hear the midi, or use MME drivers.

Next if the system works better that way then what you want to do is to exchange the behringer interface for something else, or sell it and get something else, that is more tried and tested.

A suggestion a card buss interface very reliable, http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=247018 About $199 and very good quality. Or if firewire is what you want this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=241483

Now if money is not a huge issue, then go this route, http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=184133

Or the ultimate laptop option http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Recording/Computer/Hardware?sku=242513

Good catch Beagle, if the Nvida thingey is the sound card then well there goes the issue, don't try to use two separate sound card in ASIO mode, don't try to use two separate sound cards, unless they are related and are designed for that.

Ahhhh, more light on the subject!!!!! Oh, had we this info before!!! You've been holding info back on us, JR! you naughty boy, you!

You're using your on-board sound card to route the MIDI back thru your mixer! The on-board Nvidia sound card is probably what is causing your latency. If you want to get rid of your latency, then I suggest you go into your Windows hardware properties and DISABLE the Nvidia sound card and don't hook anything up to it.

What it appears that is happening is that your MIDI data is being routed thru your Nvidia sound card which (in all likelyhood, tho I don't know for certain) has embedded soundfonts. This allows your MIDI data to "make sound". If you don't use the on-board sound card for embedded sound fonts, then you won't hear any MIDI data on the output of your FCA202 UNLESS you are using plugins.

There are several options available for plugins. Robo has already eluded to this earlier in the postings:

When you say it won't play midi in WDM i worry because if you are using Microsoft synth GS as the midi playback in MME driver mode that will not be available in WDM, because WDM does not see Microsoftsynth GS, you will have to play the midi thru a softsynth like edirol.

Edirol VCS is a plugin. Now...I don't think that MC3 comes with any soundfont plugins, but I'm not sure on that. I'll let Robo take it from here because he's much more familiar with MC3 than I am (I'm actually a SHS4 user, but I like the company of people better on this forum and the programs are very similar with respect to "how to do this"). He knows his soundfonts, too! (go Robo!)

Mr. Collins (are we getting formal, now? )

MIDI is only data - it's not sound. In order to hear MIDI data, you have to have some type of soundfont to play it thru. You are currently using the embedded soundfonts in your onboard Nvidia soundcard. If this works for you then that's fine, but the onboard sound card is very likely your source of latency.

If you have a plugin like Edirol VSC (I don't know if MC has it or not, go to INSERT>DXi Synth>EDIROL VSC - if it's not there or greyed out then you don't have it). Anyway - if you have a plugin like Edirol VSC, you create a MIDI track using that plugin as output (I can guide you thru the steps of how to do that if you have the plugin available to you). Once you capture your MIDI data, you can play the MIDI data, edit it, etc thru the plugin as long as you've connected the plugin to an audio output.

Once you've set up the MIDI to play thru the audio output track, you can listen to it in "real time" while you record vocals, guitar, etc.

I'll check back on you when I get home tonight.

Update: Experimented with Edirol a bit last night (it is apparently included with MC3). Worked good, but seems to have some glitches I need to work out, maybe y'all can give some insight.

First, I created a DXi/Edirol pair of tracks (didn't know you needed two separate tracks, but now I do). Imported a MIDI drum track. Hit the spacebar. After a bit of hesitation and a sputter, it started playing OK. I disabled NVIDIA drivers, hoping that would help, but it didn't. In fact, at some point, playback stopped altogether. It doesn't seem to be processing the signal fast enough.

Robo: You're a MIDI freak--what might smooth this out? Any clues?

BTW, I'm ready to move on. This thread has become long enough at 20 posts...

Yes, success. Though the task isn't quite complete, we're making progress. My MIDI drum tracks usually have a one measure count-off, which seems ample time for the machine to catch up.

I've also thought of bouncing my drum track to an audio track when I have it programmed properly. This would cut down on processing and would possibly alleviate my delay problems. I will record some audio next to see how they synch with the new setup. More experimentation in the works! (hands rubbing together diabolically)

I also look forward to Robo weighing in. A workable solution would put me right alongside that proverbial "pig in slop."

Beagle: just noticed you're in Ft. Worth. Wow, it's a small world!

I would vote for a bounce as well it always helps. once you have an audio track setup with edirol as the Synth then the midi id outputted to that track it should work, i will say that MC3 is less that stellar for me as well, i have tons of glitches with synths and it even starts to skip notes after a while. I think Cake has a very big bug hiding here somewhere, I am thinking of reverting back to MC2003 since it was very solid for me.

I track most of my songs in MTS anyway so MC2003 is plenty of cake features for me for now.

Ok, I've gotten lost in all the posts. I saw from your original post that you have a Behringer firewire audio interface as well as an N-vidia on board sound card...did we ever address the onboard sound card? Do you have anything connected to it? Are you perhaps running the MIDI thru IT'S embedded soundfonts? If so...that's a big problem.

You might want to disable the on board card in windows so that you don't ever use it with MC. If your MIDI is being routed thru that card it could very well be what's causing dropouts and "sputtering".