dlogan
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2544
- Joined: 2006/02/17 09:34:16
- Location: Kansas City, Missouri
- Status: offline
Mastering question
(also posted in SONAR forum 5/16) Recently purchased CD Architect 5.2. Any input on whether it's better to add master effects (reverb, eq, limiter) in CD Architect or to do it in Sonar before exporting? I'm thinking it would save CPU power to do it outside the project, since some of these master fx are CPU intensive. I read another thread recommending workflow for mastering that suggested exporting a .wav file from the original SONAR project, but then reimporting all tracks into one new SONAR project and doing the master processing there. Suggestions?
post edited by dlogan - 2006/05/16 15:39:46
|
yep
Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4057
- Joined: 2004/01/26 15:21:41
- Location: Hub of the Universe
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/05/16 16:33:41
(permalink)
As ever, here is about all I have to say on the topic of "home mastering:" http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=475013 You are correct to think that it is customery to export the final mix as a 24-bit stereo .wav file and then apply any "mastering" processing to the stereo mixdown, but that's primarily because it's customary for the mix enginner to keep working on the mix until he's sure it's perfect, and then hand it off as a perfect, finished product. There's no technical or sonic reason why somebody who wanted to apply additional processing to his own final mix needs to do it in a seperate program, although it may make life easier on your CPU and imporve workflow. Use whatever works best for you. Cheers.
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/05/16 16:45:57
(permalink)
I would suggest to do all your mastering before burning the CD no matter what software you use to burn it. The main reason is that you can't view the wavform to confirm what your levels are or if you have any clipping. The other reason is if you do the mastering using effects in CD Architect then you have no master file to archive that you can go back to. It's cute that CD Architect can do that kind of thing but it's just not a good idea at all. The best practice is that a finished song should be a wav file and the CD burning software should only encode it to Red Book specs with zero changes to levels or content. For this reason it's good to have a wav editor like Sound Forge to do your mastering in so you can keep an eye on the wavform as you make changes and be sure things are correct in the actual file before you save it. What I do is export from Sonar at the sample rate of the project and at 24bit. Then the last two steps in Sound Forge I resample to 44.1 (max quality "4") if needed and then the very last step bit reduce to 16bit with dither, then I save for the last time and that's the master.
post edited by ohhey - 2006/05/16 16:57:36
|
chaz
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2775
- Joined: 2004/02/03 12:08:00
- Location: Tampa, FL
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/05/17 13:33:05
(permalink)
I personally just keep the files in 24-bit and let CDA do the dithering at that stage.
|
jacktheexcynic
Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3069
- Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/05/19 07:49:22
(permalink)
one reason i wouldn't let my cd-burning software touch my tracks is that everything makes a difference in the sound. if you've got the sound right where you want it before hitting the cd (and you should), then you obviously want it on the cd the same way. there isn't a "make it shiny" button which will fix the song on it's way to the cd.
"mastering" in sonar or as a final step in sound forge can also cut down the number of stages a song has to go through to be finalized, and that saves time going back and forth endlessly trying to figure out why your bass disappeared or the vocals got buried or it blew your car stereo, etc.
|
Jonny M
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2005/05/16 18:48:38
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/27 08:11:19
(permalink)
I find that if I import the 'master' into my CD burning software, the levels just drop if I apply anything else to it. Could be because of what I'm using (Cakewalk's Pyro). It's annoying too because it won't let me import the files at 24bit - I have to convert it all in sonar to 16, 44.1 before exporting. I'm still a complete novice so at the moment spend more time ruining my songs than anything else!
I should probably get a decent CD burner program. By the way, what's dither?
|
krizrox
Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4046
- Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
- Location: Elgin, IL
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/27 15:04:24
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jonny M
I find that if I import the 'master' into my CD burning software, the levels just drop if I apply anything else to it. Could be because of what I'm using (Cakewalk's Pyro). It's annoying too because it won't let me import the files at 24bit - I have to convert it all in sonar to 16, 44.1 before exporting. I'm still a complete novice so at the moment spend more time ruining my songs than anything else!
I should probably get a decent CD burner program. By the way, what's dither?
dither is noise that's added to an audio signal during a conversion process. There are different types of dither noise to do different things. Why add noise (seems like a strange thing to do right?)? Google a bit you should find more info than you can stand. here's one link: http://www.earlevel.com/Digital%20Audio/Dither.html
post edited by krizrox - 2006/07/27 15:17:55
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
|
Slugbaby
Max Output Level: -33.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4172
- Joined: 2004/10/01 13:57:37
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/27 15:12:27
(permalink)
I agree with virtually everyone here. Master in Sonar, not in your CD burning software.
If you're concerned with saving CPU, bounce your entire project to a wav, and then make a specific project for just the mastering stage. I do this when I have a bunch of songs that I want to sound like a cohesive unit (eg. a CD), master all the bounced stereo masters in one project, soloing each one to ensure they're mastered similarly.
Or bounce everything into one track, and archive everything but the bounced one you want to master. This will greatly lessen the strain.
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/27 15:16:46
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jonny M
I find that if I import the 'master' into my CD burning software, the levels just drop if I apply anything else to it. Could be because of what I'm using (Cakewalk's Pyro). It's annoying too because it won't let me import the files at 24bit - I have to convert it all in sonar to 16, 44.1 before exporting. I'm still a complete novice so at the moment spend more time ruining my songs than anything else!
I should probably get a decent CD burner program. By the way, what's dither?
Yeah... dither is kinda like bondo or calk LOL ! You know when you go from 24bit with 16,777,216 different loudness values to 16bit with only 65, 536 values, it's just not going to sound as smooth especially as you decay down to silence. So the dither software adds some special noise to the signal to smooth it out so you don't get that harsh zipper effect. It's a cute trick really, covers up all kinds of tiny imprefections just like bonao and calk.  Some folks say you can upconvert a harsh sounding 16bit recording to 24bit, make a gain change or do some mastering, and then bit reduce with dither to 16bit again and it will actually improve the low level stuff just because of the dither. I have noticed this myself on some 16bit tracks from old ADAT tapes that were converted to 24bit to be used in a 24bit project.
|
Jonny M
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2005/05/16 18:48:38
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/28 23:12:36
(permalink)
Just a thought tagged onto the end of your post, ohhey...
You and krizrox enlightened me with the idea if importing a commercial song that sounds kinda like what I'm trying to achieve as a comparative tool. Bearing in mind that commercial CDs are only 16bit/44.1, would I need to upconvert the wav to to 24/96 (what my project is set to) prior to importing it in order to firstly make a more accurate compare, and secondly so it play properly in a 24/96 environment?
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/29 00:21:53
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jonny M
Just a thought tagged onto the end of your post, ohhey...
You and krizrox enlightened me with the idea if importing a commercial song that sounds kinda like what I'm trying to achieve as a comparative tool. Bearing in mind that commercial CDs are only 16bit/44.1, would I need to upconvert the wav to to 24/96 (what my project is set to) prior to importing it in order to firstly make a more accurate compare, and secondly so it play properly in a 24/96 environment?
Humm.. I didn't think of that, yes it will have to match the sample rate of your project, that will thow off the sound. Maybe you could just have them in their own project and switch and play to compare them.
|
Jonny M
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2005/05/16 18:48:38
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/29 08:48:26
(permalink)
Woah, I learned something! 
|
krizrox
Max Output Level: -35 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4046
- Joined: 2003/11/23 09:49:33
- Location: Elgin, IL
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/29 14:22:13
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ohhey
ORIGINAL: Jonny M
Just a thought tagged onto the end of your post, ohhey...
You and krizrox enlightened me with the idea if importing a commercial song that sounds kinda like what I'm trying to achieve as a comparative tool. Bearing in mind that commercial CDs are only 16bit/44.1, would I need to upconvert the wav to to 24/96 (what my project is set to) prior to importing it in order to firstly make a more accurate compare, and secondly so it play properly in a 24/96 environment?
Humm.. I didn't think of that, yes it will have to match the sample rate of your project, that will thow off the sound. Maybe you could just have them in their own project and switch and play to compare them.
Well, if you rip the audio from a CD, do it at whatever your normal operating settings are. If nothing else Sonar will automatically convert the WAV or MP3 file to whatever settings you are using. Frankly, it's not going to make that big of a difference (or shouldn't). I mean you should be able to make mixing decisions based on either 16 or 24 bit WAV files. I do it another way - I use an external CD player patched into a stereo channel on my outboard mixer. Then I just AB back and forth by switching the mute buttons on or off for the two channels (Sonar vs the CD player).
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
|
chaz
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2775
- Joined: 2004/02/03 12:08:00
- Location: Tampa, FL
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/07/29 18:37:01
(permalink)
Note something to consider.....
If you are comparing your final mastered track to that of a CD track, it would be better to convert your final to 16/44.1 rather than the other way around. The reason being that the 16/441 file is what will end up being heard anyway. Plus, it is what you are trying to get closer to anyway.
Hope this helps.
|
Greenbrain
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 52
- Joined: 2006/07/30 10:54:34
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/01 12:30:59
(permalink)
CD Architect is not mastering program but more of an assembly program.
You will have more flexibility dealing with each track individually in a program designed specifically for that purpose.
|
TheFingers 
Max Output Level: -58.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1669
- Joined: 2005/10/28 18:42:44
- Location: A warm canal.
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/01 20:05:10
(permalink)
Sonar will automatically convert the WAV or MP3 file to whatever settings you are using. Hey Frank, read Larry's post, he's correct, Sonar converts the import to the project rate.
1973 "A" neck. I'd rather be playing Bass:
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/02 07:36:24
(permalink)
Lately, I've been doing my "mastering" (such as it is) directly on the Master Buss in Sonar. I like working this way, as it means if the mastering process reveals something about the mix that needs to change, you have it right there and can do it straight away.
I'm finding this curcumvents my natural laziness, and makes me more likey to go back to do subtle tweaks, whereas before I might have got to a sort of "it's good enough" stage after the first couple of iterations.
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/02 07:40:08
(permalink)
Then again, I don't have this dither problem to deal with as my Sonar projects are all in 16/44 from the start, which will undoubtledy see me denounced as a madman and audio heretic
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/02 10:10:07
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: TheFingers
Sonar will automatically convert the WAV or MP3 file to whatever settings you are using.
Hey Frank, read Larry's post, he's correct, Sonar converts the import to the project rate.
Yeah.. I haven't done that in a while I forgot.
|
Billy Buck
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2101
- Joined: 2003/11/05 22:25:15
- Location: Atlanta, GA.
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/02 12:06:42
(permalink)
I've been reading this month's August issue, of the UAWebzine and there is an interesting article about ITB mastering with UAD-1 plugins. What is interesting, is not so much the use of the UAD-1 plugins (which as an avid UAD-1 user I am always interested in ), but the actual approach to the mastering process. The article is about the rather unorthodox technique that Marcus Wuest (recording, mixing and mastering engineer from Mannheim, Germany) uses to master a stereo track, by copying the stereo track to (3) separate tracks and applying different processing to two of them and mixing them in, underneath the main unprocessed track. All three tracks are then routed to the master bus. Sorta like, parallel stem mastering. He ends up using (7) UAD-1 plugins, in total. He works in Logic 7, but it is something that could easily be replicated, in SONAR, as well. Pretty interesting stuff and the final audio mix does sound fantastic, at least good enough to debut @ number 2, on one of Germany's most popular radio stations. I like that earthy, organic vibe with the vocals upfront. I am certainly gonna give it a try. You can find the article and the tutorial video here, just press the Plug-In Power button, to the left of the webpage: http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2006/august/index3.html 
post edited by Billy Buck - 2006/08/02 12:21:43
Win 10 Pro x64 | i7 4770k | ASUS Z87 Deluxe/Quad w/ TB 2.0 | 16GB Corsair RAM | Apollo Twin Duo USB | UAD Satellite Octo USB | UAD-2 Quad + UAD-2 Solo PCIe | SONAR Platinum x64 ∞ | REAPER 5 x64| TranzPort
|
TheFingers
Max Output Level: -58.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1669
- Joined: 2005/10/28 18:42:44
- Location: A warm canal.
- Status: offline
RE: Mastering question
2006/08/03 11:25:28
(permalink)
Looks worth a try, thanks for the heads up!
1973 "A" neck. I'd rather be playing Bass:
|