Neglect
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mixdown mastering
any good links for step-by-step mixdowns and mastering in auditions 2.0 and maybe a few for sound forge 8.0 or if you have some good ideas i wouldn't mind hearing them. something a lil more in depth then listen apply effects enjoy. useing a home studio (pc) i have plenty of of plug ins. think of it as explaining your own steps in mixdown or mastering
post edited by Neglect - 2006/07/21 00:36:00
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glazfolk
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 00:57:18
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Oh what a huge subject! I'll just make one suggestion.
Go to the Izotope Ozone site and download their free Mastering Guide (in PDF format). Then read it. OK, it specifically is designed for use with Ozone but has plenty of good general tips also.
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papa2004
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 01:09:28
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Oye vay..  . Here comes another one...
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Neglect
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 01:19:46
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i'm pretty good at mixdowns so far its the mastering that gets to me ... i need something for more rnb or hip hop i'm pretty good at it so the bigger headache is finding a stable "commercial" way. i'm able to get my sounds close to what i like useing most of wave and sunitus. Izotope Ozone guids pretty good .. but i'm looking for something more in tune with auditions maybe sound forge.
post edited by Neglect - 2006/07/21 01:38:05
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tunekicker
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 03:00:09
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The Ozone Mastering Guide is a GREAT start.
I would also HIGHLY recommend that you buy Bob Katz's MASTERING AUDIO and don't look back. It is a FANTASTIC read with a lot of theory, great tips, and a lot of practical advice.
You will learn a LOT and it won't feel like quite as much of a mystery.
Peace,
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three_eyed_otter
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 03:10:11
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Oye vay... Here comes another one... Funny. lol. Look up Bob Moulton. He doesn't seem to be as famous as Mr. Katz but he's got a good head on his shoulders w/some fine ears. have a good one 3Eo
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Neglect
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 05:35:44
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well this topic seems to be as tedious as counting sand. i was trying to see the difference in mastering studio's and if its really worth the time investing ... as simple as it may sound, it seems like mastering is just to "sweeten" up the mixdown (dither). i wouldn't mind hearing some mixdown post mastered music to mastered music.
playing my music next to a commercial cd its very close if not the same my ears may need more experience, i think i got the jest of things.
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dcastle
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 09:36:00
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matthewv
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 16:15:50
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I always find that "Rock2" does the job when it comes to mastering.
www.vanderwant-letcher.com
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garrigus
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 16:19:22
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ohhey
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/21 16:38:32
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I like to get the mix as close to finished as possible before the export with the compressor on the main bus. That way there is very little to do in mastering other then trim and fade the ends, resample to 44.1 (if needed), and bit reduce to 16bit. In some cases I'll hard limit and up the gain to fill the headroom to zero (real normalize) but that's about it. If it needs more then that it's a remix. In the old days you did a lot in mastering because remixes were hard, expensive, or just impossible. With a DAW you don't have to think that way anymore. You can export again in minutes so there is no reason to "fix" things in mastering. Even adding compression after the export will alter the mix and tone in some way and in that case you have lost the hard earned "what-you-hear-is-what-you-get" advantage we have all waited so long to have during mixing. I say, use those clip gain envelopes to perfect the dyanmics of tracks, use a compressor on the main buss to make it loud, and get the mix "right". If we all put in the time and effort during the mix to get things right we can make mastering the lost art that it should be. I used to do mastering for hire and try to salvage what I could of some crap mixes, I don't do that anymore. I tell them to go back and mix it till they get it right, my job should be easy, not yours. LOL ! 
post edited by ohhey - 2006/07/21 16:49:32
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papa2004
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/22 02:45:33
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If we all put in the time and effort during the mix to get things right we can make mastering the lost art that it should be. "Lost art"? I think not...At least not in our serviceable years... Frank, You've offered a lot of helpful advice in your 6000+ posts but, IMO, you're way off-base on this one (other than the first sentence of your reply)... Mastering, in the true sense of the word, IS an "art" that requires the proper acoustic environment, proper monitors, proper equipment, good ears, extensive knowledge of processing and the ability to add an objective opinion of how a project should eventually sound..."Mastering" is, obviously, a derivative form of the word "Master"...That speaks volumes about what it means... In some cases I'll hard limit and up the gain to fill the headroom to zero (real normalize) Hard limiting and normalizing are entirely different processes. Why would you want to "fill the headroom to zero"? Where are the dynamics there? The "real" normalize process (properly used) either increases or decrease the dB level of tracks in accordance with where you determine the peak level should be. If your loudest track is at -3dB and your other tracks are at -12dB, setting the "normalize" gain at 0dB you'll end up with the loudest track at 0dB and the others at -9dB... On the other hand, "hard limiting" (depending on your threshold settings) is basically "squashing" your mix. That isn't what "mastering" is about. While that may add the "loudness" you're looking for, there are more practical (and aurally pleasant) ways to achieve that "loudness"...It's called "mastering" in a true mastering studio with a mastering engineer that actually knows his/her craft. I mean no offense by this reply, but I think you're misleading a lot of folks with the advice you've posted...
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ohhey
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/22 03:03:48
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ORIGINAL: papa2004
If we all put in the time and effort during the mix to get things right we can make mastering the lost art that it should be.
"Lost art"? I think not...At least not in our serviceable years...
Frank,
You've offered a lot of helpful advice in your 6000+ posts but, IMO, you're way off-base on this one (other than the first sentence of your reply)...
Mastering, in the true sense of the word, IS an "art" that requires the proper acoustic environment, proper monitors, proper equipment, good ears, extensive knowledge of processing and the ability to add an objective opinion of how a project should eventually sound..."Mastering" is, obviously, a derivative form of the word "Master"...That speaks volumes about what it means...
In some cases I'll hard limit and up the gain to fill the headroom to zero (real normalize)
Hard limiting and normalizing are entirely different processes. Why would you want to "fill the headroom to zero"? Where are the dynamics there?
The "real" normalize process (properly used) either increases or decrease the dB level of tracks in accordance with where you determine the peak level should be. If your loudest track is at -3dB and your other tracks are at -12dB, setting the "normalize" gain at 0dB you'll end up with the loudest track at 0dB and the others at -9dB...
On the other hand, "hard limiting" (depending on your threshold settings) is basically "squashing" your mix. That isn't what "mastering" is about. While that may add the "loudness" you're looking for, there are more practical (and aurally pleasant) ways to achieve that "loudness"...It's called "mastering" in a true mastering studio with a mastering engineer that actually knows his/her craft.
I mean no offense by this reply, but I think you're misleading a lot of folks with the advice you've posted...
I didn't mean squash the mix, I don't do that. I just ment reduce the peaks that are obvious and then normalize, not compress. But again, even that may not be needed if the mix is good.
post edited by ohhey - 2006/07/22 03:15:14
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three_eyed_otter
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/22 12:05:32
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I didn't mean squash the mix, I don't do that. Why not? have a good one 3Eo
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michael japan
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/22 13:18:31
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"use a compressor on the main bus to make it loud"? Frank--I would imagine you are talking about getting out a quick demo to send to a client to let them see how things sound. Though I agree that DAW's have drastically changed the way we do things, I personally feel that there is just something about only having to deal with 2 tracks (like in Sound Forge or Samplitude) that is very different that dealing with 48. (plus the ear fatigue factor).I definitely agree about using track volumes/envelopes to get it right, but I suggest to leave the mix clean from "overall" compressiong (L2) enhancement or eq and to leave that to another day. Like they say in Italy after a long day and somebody brings up another issue or point of work, "dopo cappucino" (after morning coffee). Plus, if you have comprssion on the drums, compression on the master bus, and then the mastering cat adds it again the life and dynamic range will be sucked out of the song. I am of the school to "let it breathe". I totally believe that you know this and understand the point you are trying to put across, but I hate to mislead somebody into thinking that mastering has become so simple. I still send my mixes to be mastered. The followng pdf are some of the reasons why--I am just not that meticulous and my room, though good with good monitors, is not up to snuff. DOWNLOAD LINKS: http://files.abmc.net/BDQ9VQ2D/bobkatz.pdf ftp://files.abmc.net/BDQ9VQ2D/bobkatz.pdf Cheers--yes it's 2:30 a.m. and I jus got back from a gig so I could regret this in the morning. :)
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ohhey
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/22 14:36:59
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ORIGINAL: three_eyed_otter
I didn't mean squash the mix, I don't do that.
Why not?
have a good one
3Eo
That's just not HiFi to me, I'd rather not have my name on any of that stuff. I'll check out of the business till it's over.
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Neglect
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/23 04:54:49
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this is very informative and thanks for the links, i'm in-between many forums and sites about the true "art" of mastering digital audio, the weirdest thing is that when i started out i was doing movies and cartoons ect. the catch i only recorded project peices so it went no further then demo, so i didn't get to master more then the video audio was either done already or recorded and sent out.
i agree with alot of concepts in the forums, but i also have a source that basicly keeps me up2 date on what happens during mastering. personally i think the "mixdown" (pre-master) is the most important part, mastering is more for limits and final eq on complete songs as a whole more so, or fiting all the tracks together correctly then converting it to a format.
i really wonder tho are there pre-set's that mastering engineer use for a set genre
(omnious puase ....)
o and vocals get nasty some times to me. maybe if i keep at it and the forum population keeps me above water i'll catch up quicker.
i'm sure theres a system for some of these things if only i knew what they where.
too bad things aren't step-by-step, like ; auditions import vocals, noise reductions, wave ->c4 -> noise reducition.... reverb -> 25% wet/45% dry... mastering steps -> limit 0 db, filters -> ().... save ... 44.1/16.
anybody got tips and tricks they mind shareing ...?
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michael japan
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/23 05:07:33
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ORIGINAL: Neglect
this is very informative and thanks for the links, i'm in-between many forums and sites about the true "art" of mastering digital audio, the weirdest thing is that when i started out i was doing movies and cartoons ect. the catch i only recorded project peices so it went no further then demo, so i didn't get to master more then the video audio was either done already or recorded and sent out.
i agree with alot of concepts in the forums, but i also have a source that basicly keeps me up2 date on what happens during mastering. personally i think the "mixdown" (pre-master) is the most important part, mastering is more for limits and final eq on complete songs as a whole more so, or fiting all the tracks together correctly then converting it to a format.
i really wonder tho are there pre-set's that mastering engineer use for a set genre
(omnious puase ....)
o and vocals get nasty some times to me. maybe if i keep at it and the forum population keeps me above water i'll catch up quicker.
i'm sure theres a system for some of these things if only i knew what they where.
too bad things aren't step-by-step, like ; auditions import vocals, noise reductions, wave ->c4 -> noise reducition.... reverb -> 25% wet/45% dry... mastering steps -> limit 0 db, filters -> ().... save ... 44.1/16.
anybody got tips and tricks they mind shareing ...?
there is a certain system shall we say--but the best thing is to understand the "psychology" behind it shall we say. If you ask, "shall I put compression on this--what ratio should I use"--then you will get differing opinions. What you want to learn is what sounds good. It is often the tiny little tweaks that individually don't do that much, but when summed make all the difference--but you have to know what you are looking for. Watch this video by Dave Pensad0--a lot you will know--but it keeps it simple. http://www.sound.org/interviews.html#
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papa2004
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/24 00:53:26
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reverb -> 25% wet/45% dry Reverbs, delays, etc., should (almost) always be set to 100% "wet", unless you're processing the tracks using the effect (usually not a good idea)...You should be using Aux send/receive busses for your effects... i really wonder tho are there pre-set's that mastering engineer use for a set genre
(omnious puase ....) There are "presets" that most engineers use for particular instruments and genres...BUT, they are used as a "starting point" and/or quick way to dial in "basic" settings which they will then begin to tweak to achieve the desired sound...BTW, if you tweak a preset in one of your processing programs, and you really love the sound of it, you should save that as a new (user-defined) preset... anybody got tips and tricks they mind shareing ...?
The legendary Bob Katz has a few... CLICK HERE to read them... A lot of other useful information can be found by clicking HERE... Learning to truly master is difficult...You can't do it by reading a few articles or by heeding the advice you get in user forums...It takes months, even years to learn all that needs to be learned (ESPECIALLY in the digital realm)...
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MarkL8
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/24 01:50:58
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This thread is just what I needed! Thanks for all the tips! Now heres a question Im finishing up my very first "crude" recording and was going to post it for you pro's to give me some pointers on what your experienced ears are hearing. The song is a cover tune so (my wifes favorite song -Wonderful Tonight) she sure deserves it putting up with my many GAS attcaks lately! So I cant post it at soundclick and I dont care to break any laws. If I put it on something like savefile solely for the purpose getting others opinions on the mix is that legal? Or is is just wise to never post any cover tunes at all.
THX
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michael japan
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/24 02:48:20
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put it on soundclick and give it a different name .:) Well, I don't really know. Maybe someone can chime in.
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papa2004
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RE: mixdown mastering
2006/07/25 00:51:40
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So I cant post it at soundclick and I dont care to break any laws. If I put it on something like savefile solely for the purpose getting others opinions on the mix is that legal? Or is is just wise to never post any cover tunes at all. Interpretation of copyright law in that matter can be confusing. Putting cover songs on a website that YOU own (with the obligatory © information and a disclaimer that YOUR recorded version may not be reproduced in any manner, yada-yada, and that the SOLE intent of posting said copyrighted materials is for the purpose of critique and/or discussion of the elements involved in creating YOUR recording of the material. Be sure to include a very specific disclaimer stating that absolutely NO revenue is being earned from your posting of the material and that you are not promoting the sale of any of your own recorded projects by posting said material... Bottom line: Soundclick? No (unless you get permission from the publisher). Your own non-commercial website? Probably okay, although I wouldn't actually provide a clickable link on YOUR website--Just place it in a folder that you create with your web-hosting provider (but be prepared for notification to remove the song's link at any time--but I doubt you'll face any legal ramifications as long as you don't leave the link posted for any serious length of time)... By doing it this way, you could post the link in the Songs forum on this board and it would be difficult to dispute your intent as anything other than "instructional" since you don't actually have a "link" provided on YOUR website... In other words, it's a "hidden file" that can't be accessed randomly by any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to stumble upon your website...
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