samhoff
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Making Instrumentals Sound Real
Please, advice on making a Dimension (or Groovesynth, or whatever, really) "trumpet sound" actually sound like a trumpet. Or clarinet sound like a clarinet, a flute like a flute, a violin like a real violin . . . you get the picture. I think it has to do with the doohickeys on the side of the keyboard but I need more info. Specifically I'm hoping aftertouch and vibrato will do it? Okay, now I'm going to come clean and apologize and admit that I'm really wanting advice on what keyboard to buy to make these realistic sounds. I posted a question to that effect in the appropriate place, "Gear" here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=860273 But I'm getting few hits (ok, only one) on that thread and what I'm really after is realism, so I thought I'd ask here in the "techniques" thread. As I stated in the other post, my current keyboard (without the knobs on the side) does a GREAT sounding "piano" (along with Art Vista's VGP, which I highly recommend). But instrumentals come out lame and flat. . . Advice appreciated, and again I apologize if this comes off as a double post . . . Thanks, Sam
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Sonic the Hedgehog
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/25 01:15:19
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Hi Samhoff,
Basically, whether your using a keyboard or a software program, the following is true: they will never sound like the real thing. That said, there are many ways to make them sound more ''real'' through practice and a knowledge of the instrument in question. For example, if you're recording a violin part, ''think'' like a violinist. When you play a melody, make sure you don't ''attach'' all the notes together. A slight pause of one beat or less can give the listener the impression that the bow is changing directions(up or down). Also, you may want to vary the volume to give added emotion/intensity, etc...
Since each instrument has its own idiosychrasies, it is important for you to adapt yourself to each one. The danger in doing that is that you can end up having split personalities...
''I work to live, but live to make music'' -Mahler
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/26 09:22:28
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agree with sonic the hedgehog. i tried for years to get realistic string sounds and had only one success: a free cello soundfont that when played slowly sounds just like the real thing. now for a fast run? heh. good luck.
ensemble sounds aren't that hard to get right but solo sounds are very difficult. no experience with horns, that's not my style but i imagine you'd have at least as much trouble with them as with violins (the one realistic violin soundfont i found had severe looping issues). and you do have to learn about the instrument and listen to a real performance of one so you get an idea of how they are played.
you might check out online session musicians, a google search turned up a couple. maybe not for your score as a whole, but for any solo work where it's obvious the instrument is a soft-synth.
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holderofthehorns
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/26 13:07:51
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If you can get one or two real instruments in the mix (preferrably the lead melodist), it can trick the ear into thinking the other instruments are real also.
post edited by holderofthehorns - 2006/09/26 13:22:08
Eric Anderson HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
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Slugbaby
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/26 14:29:58
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Try to focus on what a real musician (of that instrument) would do.
For an instrument like a trumpet, you'd have to leave space for the player to breath. Velocity would need to vary like breath, etc.
A guitarist won't hit all six strings at the same time - you'd have to stagger the start times to mimic a real strum, you'd leave some notes ringing longer than others,
You can do it, but it takes A LOT of work.
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samhoff
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/26 15:20:39
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Ok, well, I doubt anyone is serious enough to pursue this but IF YOU ARE. . . . Here's why I ask the question. Download THIS video: ftp://ftp.cakewalk.com/pub/Images/Messe_Video/Messe-Instruments_Project5-256.mov of Brandon playing on Project 5. Fast forward to 9:51 (electric guitar) 13:03-13:15 (guitar) and 13:30 (muted trumpet) and I'm telling you, the things sound pretty darn real. It was this video and watching these portions that made me think, Sheesh, my keyboard doesn't have those doohickeys on the side, so I need to buy a new one! So. . . if any of you are so inclined check out the video and give me some input please! Sam PS I know "talent" fits in there somewhere too. . .
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seetimstreasures
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/26 20:38:38
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All of the responders make excellent points. Yet, even a live instrument is still subject to being digitialized.
I play accustic guitar, some strum rhythm, some finger picking.
The addition of a live instrument definitely brings out a live quality to midi. But, it is still a ton of work, trial and error, to make everything sound real. Don't rush your project. Live, is relative. For example; different guitars sound greatly different. It sounds to me like you have a sound you want to hear.
Just keep adjusting your project, even a singe midi instrument untill you hear what you want to hear. Then let it set a day or two and listen to it again. This is how I do it. I get some incredibly real sounding midi instruments. I don't think anyone could tell the difference in my final projects.
There is no one button solution.
Good Luck.
Timothy James Maki
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madratter
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/27 12:16:26
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ORIGINAL: samhoff
Ok, well, I doubt anyone is serious enough to pursue this but IF YOU ARE. . . .
Here's why I ask the question. Download THIS video: ftp://ftp.cakewalk.com/pub/Images/Messe_Video/Messe-Instruments_Project5-256.mov
of Brandon playing on Project 5.
Fast forward to 9:51 (electric guitar) 13:03-13:15 (guitar) and 13:30 (muted trumpet) and I'm telling you, the things sound pretty darn real.
It was this video and watching these portions that made me think, Sheesh, my keyboard doesn't have those doohickeys on the side, so I need to buy a new one!
So. . . if any of you are so inclined check out the video and give me some input please!
Sam
PS I know "talent" fits in there somewhere too. . .
I went ahead and watched the video. Terrible sound quality but it does get across the point you are making. Anyway, I came away from it thinking that what he did was expressive but it didn't sound real to me. But honestly, I think that is ok for many things. I have no real expectation that I will ever be able to do Mahler's 4th or Beethoven's 6th and have it sound like an orchestra. But I absolutely do want to be able to play expressively. I took piano lessons for many years and it was my first instrument. Then I took up guitar sometime in high school. It was such an expressive instument: String bends, Which string you are playing on, Hammer ons and pull offs, slides, the way you pick it, etc. Then you discover synths and find out that they can also be played expressively with the proper controller, pitch bend, mod wheels, aftertouch, sliders, knobs. Yeah! My advice is this. By all means get a controller that will allow you to be more expressive than your current gear. But don't expect to sound real. And don't expect at first to sound very good using those controls expressively. It will take practice. Also, if possible, play some of the controllers you are considering before buying. I have owned various keyboards down through the years and I have found that I really like some things and dislike others. Personally, I loath the joystick on my DW-8000. Some people love joysticks. And then there is the feel of the keys themselves. All unweighted keyboards are not equal. I just went out and bought a Axiom 61 because I wanted a controller with all the knobs and sliders for Sonar 6 (and for my B4 II, etc.) I think I'm going to be very happy with it. But that doesn't mean it would be the right controller for you.
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rbowser
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/27 13:55:05
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And I'm not sure if anyone explained that the "doohickys" on the keyboard are the Pitch Bend Wheel and the Modulation Wheel. The latter is usually able to be assigned many different MIDI controllers.
But you can apply all those necessary MIDI effects to achieve a more natural acoustic sound to instruments if you go to Piano View and start working with the list of MIDI controllers there. YOu can paint in the data--it's doing what the wheels do, only in "slow motion." And you need to go to the Piano View to edit data recorded with wheels anyway.
Some programs are going to offer you a great starting point for getting a "real" sound, because they're libraries of superb samples. I use Garritan Personal Orchestra. Big learning curve with that soft-synth library, but well worth it.
Lots of great advice to you on this thread--wanted to add those few other thoughts.
If you click the link in my sig, you can hear me working with GPO--Especially in "Danse Macabre" and the first song at the bottom, samples from my stage musical.
Randy
rbowser
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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DonnyAir
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RE: Making Instrumentals Sound Real
2006/09/28 09:49:06
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The other thing I would add would be to not play the instrument you are using outside of the range that the real thing would be capable of.
So, if you are recording a cello part, playing a part in the area up above C6 wouldn't lend to the realism, because a cello has a finite range, and playing above it would certainly detract from the realism.
I use GPO's persona orchestra, and this program is cool in that it won't let me play above the natural range of the instrument chosen.
Now, keeping in mind that all of the above is simply stated to give a legitimacy to your "real" orchestral parts.
I'm not saying I never have pushed the envelope on this kind of stuff.
I was simply commenting on your post regarding realistic sounds/performances.
http://www.donnythompson.com
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