Advice on drum recording needed!

Hello to everyone...
With my band (No Direction i play italian rock-melodic hardcore (with some punk,metal, ska influence...). We are about to start to record our second album, and i will handle all the recording session and production. probably in december we will start, and in these week we have time to test the drum recording and to optimize the sound.

Our instruments are the following
kick: akg D112
Snare, 2 toms: shure SM57
2 floor toms: mics for rent... still to be decided!
overhead: samson C01

then we have 2 condenser mics: behringer C1 and a roytek CM200WB.
For this first test, i used the behringer on the hat, and i didnt used the roytek, but i think that was a big mistake!
The drummer brought a small voice-clip mic, and at the end of the session we mounted it in front of the kick beater. It's not so good, but it was just a try...
Next week i will use the Roytek on the hat and the behringer on the kick beater

For the PC interconnection, we have a Roland ME16 mixer with direct out that come to a Fostex VC8, are converted in ADAT and finally arrive to a cramware Pulsar (24 bit, but in the foloowing files they are dithered to 16 bits)
In the future i will bring a presonus tubepre, and i plan to use it either on the kick or on the snare... which one is the best??? ^_^ )

Some photos of my setup:
PHOTOS


In order to optimize the sound, the drummer worked also on the skin tension, and he achieved a sound that better suited his tastes by loosing a bit the kick front skin.. in order to get a bit more "tail".
In the following files the drummer first plays all the pieces of the drumset (kik, snare,hat, cymbals, a single tom) and then improvises a bit.
I prepared a mix where i only putted some gate on kik, snare, tom and rolled off the bass frequences on the hat and overhead, nothing else.
then, i have the single tracks in mp3 or in wav. they begin all at the same point, you should be able to load them in the seqeucner without problems...

MIX mp3
MIX wave
Tracks mp3
Tracks Wave


The tracks are: kik, snare, kik beater, hat, 1 tom, overhead L, overhead R.

I hope that someone has the some time to listen to them and give us some hints!! :-)

I mostly dislike the sound of the hat and, obviously, the beater... i hope to get better results with the roytek and the behringer on the beater.
regarding hat mic position... i feel that it's correct... what do you think?

On next weekend we will return to our reharsal room and we will made all the corrections according to your suggestions... then we will start!!!

I listened to mix 1, it sounds pretty decent...

Although your hi hat is pretty hot (for my tastes) and also sounds "brittle".

This is almost always the case when you direct mic the HH.

I rarely do, and generally let the overhead X-Y pair grab it instead. It comes out much more silky, yet still plenty present in the mix.

It may be just my ears, but your overheads sound a wee bit "phasy" to me... what mic'ing configuration were you using on the OH's?

If it would help, I've posted a link to an article I did on drum recording a few years back:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=445398&mpage=1&key=recording%2Cdrums񭎤

But consider that my way certainly isn't the only way... these are just observations I've made over the years as being both a drummer and an audio engineer.

FWIW

-D.

DonnyAir
Thanks for that link, thats a great thread.

Donny,

Have you ever recorded drums that already have mic's in them. Our Drummer has built in mic's in the kick, 4 rack toms and floor tom. the snare we use a 57 and think we tried to mic the high hat, will look again, then 2 condenser mic's over the 3 cymbails (sp) besides the high hat.

We have the overheads pointed straight down. needless to say we get a lot of drums in the overheads, but you are saying this is a good thing? Also have a hard time getting the snare out of the high hat but also this an OK thing as well? It seems like the high hat as a solo does just fine with this setup. How much should the high hat come through in the total mix and not as a solo.

This is my first time of ever trying any of this recording stuff. We end up with a total of 9 tracks for the drums.

Thank you very much. I also have saved and printed your thread on mic'ing.

Richard

Have you ever recorded drums that already have mic's in them.

No. I can't say that I've ever even heard any recordings where this method was used.

The main problem I see with this method, while it certainly seems convenient enough, is that it doesn't allow you to move the mics, and sometimes moving a mic, dynamic or condenser, even a fraction can result in drastic tonal changes... sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse, but as an engineer I want the freedom to do so if I see fit.


Also, part of a drum's sound is how it is perceived from outside and away from the kit.
Having mics inside the shell could...and I say could... result in weird or unwanted overtones, even if the drum is tuned well.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm saying I've never done it as a drummer, nor have I recorded this way as an engineer.

We have the overheads pointed straight down. needless to say we get a lot of drums in the overheads, but you are saying this is a good thing?

What model mics are you using for OH's? And...Are you using a close coincidental array like X-Y or ORTF? Or are you using an "A/B" config where on mic is pointed down on the drummer's right and the other to his left?

Generally, when mic'ing with an X-Y array overtop, I tend to angle the mics so that they are pointed slightly down, but not directly so.

Also have a hard time getting the snare out of the high hat but also this an OK thing as well?

I'm not a fan of mic'ing the HH, Slim. I much prefer letting the overheads grab the hat. It almost always comes off much silkier, but just as present. The times I have used a discrete mic on the hi hat, I ended up not even using that track because it's almost always harsh and brittle.

As to your question "how much hi hat in the mix"... well, this is an individual taste thing. I prefer it more as a texture than an actual audible " in your face" part. The best you can do is simply balance the kit to where everything sounds fairly even.

Sometimes this requires less fader control and more mic re-adjustment. Having an assistant to move mics in small increments while the drummer is playing and you are mixing helps out a lot.

Also, and this is important... having a drummer who can play consistently is key...
I can't count the number of soundchecks I did in recording sessions where during the check, the drummer would play a certain way... and even after I requested "play how you play...not how you think I want you to play"
and then when tape was rolling he dropped off to a whisper or worse, started smacking the drums so hard that stuff started falling over. A good drummer understands dynamics, but understands consistancy as well.

As far as the importance of OH's...
I rely on room and overhead mics more than other engineers, I think, and this isn't necesarrily to say that my way is "the way".
I want to make sure that is understood.

A lot of things come into play... the style of music, the room you are recording in, the drummer, the quality of the drums, how well they are tuned, etc.

But generally, I like having a solid overhead set to rely on to grab the sound of the kit. I would even go so far as to say that if I was limited in mics and/or tracks, say, 5 mics total... 1 for kick, 1 for snare, and three for toms, and no OH's,
given the choice between mic'ing the toms or using overheads, I would almost always choose the overheads.

But again, that's just my way.

FWIW

D.

If triggered mics means using midi then they are regular mic's as to what kind I do not know for sure. The main sound man doing the recording thinks they are actual mic not triggers. All I know is we hook balanced lines to them and into a Berringer pre amp and light wire into my fostec Vf 160.

We have two stands for the overheads. One on the left side of drummer over the top of the cymbal with the rivets in it, LOL, and one on the other side of the drummer right over the other two cymbals. I know that is funny as all get out but I am not a drummer. Both mic's are pointed straight down at the cymbals. Sorry I can not be specific than that right now but we are going out to the drummers basement thursday and do some more recording. Will try and find out what kind of mic's and more info.

Thanks for all your time Guys, I appreciate it

Richard

I can appreciate what you're doing here...there is a more time-efficient, productive solution...been there, done that perspective: no need to reinvent the wheel. Unless you're doing groundbreaking, never-been-there-before drum sounds, there is an easier way to get excellent results. Use Roland VDrums (or equals) with a drummer who loves them, feels them.

And I can appreciate this solution as an option.

But truth be told, mic'ing up a real kit isn't as hard as many make it out to be.

If you've got good drums, decent mics, a good drummer who knows how to properly tune, and a basic understanding of mic'ing principles, recording a real kit isn't really rocket science.

While the trigger/ resample method is certainly popular, and while it can give nice results, the thing about playing an E kit is that you will miss certain nuances and subtleties that a real kit offers... little things we don't really think about, but that do add to the sound; the way a snare may rattle slightly when the kick is struck, the possibility that if the sensitivity isn't dialed in enough that you may miss ghost beats that sound cool, or the way the overhead mics sound in a nice room, that certain "space" that a nice stereo pair on the OH's captures...not too mention that many samples are pre-processed with compression, verb, etc.

That being said, I encourage anyone to use whatever works best for them. But don't be mistaken in that mic'ing a real drum kit is brain surgery... because it isn't.

As a drummer, I've certainly had the opportunity to use E drums, but there was always something missing, to my ears anyway...

But... to each his own.

FWIW

Ok, Got back from doing somne recording last night. I did get the name of the drum mic's. Inside the drums are Shure MAY SYSTEM mic's. Fred, our drummer, thinks they are a modified version of the 57. Then we use 2 EV RE 200 for the overheads. As I said before we just point them straight down at the cymbals. Have not tried any other configuration.

Fred also has a drum moduole that can be triggered with these same mic's. He turned it on last night to show me. He can get different sounding drums with that thing. So, some how they can also work as triggers. We just hook them into the Fostex for recording.

The main thing with these mic's in the drums, it seems to me I can get better panning with them but I also think maybe I pan them to wide. I have the 1st tom, smallest, and the floor tom panned at 50% left and right. Does this sound to wide? kick off center around 10% and Bass equal off center oppisite with snare in center along with vocal. I don't know enough about EQ'ing yet to know how to do that right. Or compression for that matter. but getting there, I hope.

Richard

Best recording of drums I ever heard was two mics, left and right channels, about 20 feet from the kit, 6 feet off the ground, mics positioned about 8 inches apart. Basically put the mics where a human being's ears would be if he/she were standing 20 feet from the drum kit.

The resulting recording sounds exactly like what you'd hear if you were in the room with a drummer playing. Whether it's in or out of phase, in or out of time alignment, it's the natural sound of a drum kit as human ears would hear it.

Put your time and effort into tuning the drums correctly and getting the kit to sound good as an instrument, all sounds complementing one another, etc. Then concentrate on playing well. Then let reality sound like whatever it sounds like.

If you want to play around to get different sounds, put the two mics 6 feet away, or 30. Put them higher in the air or closer to the ground. Put them behind the drum set rather than in front, or directly overhead. Each different location will change the mix and sound, and somewhere along the way you'll find the mix you like. In other words, record reality from different perspectives in the room, or move the drum set to a different location in the room, or use a different room, or put more sound absorbing material in the room or take some out. Wherever the mics are placed and whatever room you use, use only 2 and keep them 8 inches apart, like human ears.

Reality sounds good if you make the effort to get it right on takedown. Rather than massage the snot out of a drum track after the fact, adding EQ, compression, time alignment, tweaking faders up and down etc. all over the place, try to get a good sound in 2-channel stereo without any electronic enhancement. This approach helps you focus on what's important, the tone, feeling and musical quality of your instrument, track and performance. Also uses up a lot less CPU power, and simplifies mixing. You'll have fewer parameters to continually fiddle with to get it "just right." If you record it just right, it will stay just right because reality is just right.

The 2-mic approach won't work for all styles of music. No single technique does. It's simply an alternative to the endless knob-twiddling approach, which also doesn't work for all styles of music and isn't even necessary for many styles. But in another thread on this forum, someone referred to "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" being necessary in metal music. So even proponents of the multiple mic/endless knob-twiddling approach acknowledge the unreality of the resulting sound.

That person also said "Try getting a metal band to agree with the 2-mic approach.” Well, it worked pretty well for Jimmy Page when he was recording John Bonham, and many rock and metal drummers regard that sound as monstrously influential in their own playing. Anyone got a problem with the drums on Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir?" (Yeah, I know, flanged and all that. But the basic recording is of a whole drum kit, not a collection of heavily manipulated individually close-mic'd drums.) Perhaps the metal drummers just don't know the facts. Or they read posts on recording-technique forums and figure the only way to get a good sound is to endlessly fiddle with numerous mics and software rather than simply tune their kit and play well. Hey, Tommy Lee used to hang upside down with his drumkit in the air to play drums during concerts. Does that mean all metal drummers have to hang upside down with their drumkits in the air to get a good sound?

It's all good. Folks who want to use multiple mics and twiddle knobs will use multiple mics and twiddle knobs. You feel the need to hang upside down in the air to get a good drum sound? Do it. Folks who just want to get their kit to sound killer and then give a killer performance will do that. It all comes down to what you enjoy doing most, playing with the recording gear or playing with your instrument. Good results can be had either way. I'm simply making the case that reality is an acceptable option vs. multiple mics and "over-manipulation of the close mic'd toms and the exceedingly hyped kick" found in a lot of music these days.

Maybe a metal drummer will read about the 2-mic approach, try it and love it, and a whole new fad will get started. I just know I'd rather play my instrument for 2 hours working on getting the kit and the part to sound good and then record the final performance in one 5-minute take, instead of play my instrument for 5 minutes and then twiddle knobs for 2 hours making the sound over-manipulated and hyped.

Guess that's why some folks are musicians and others are engineers.

After reading many posts in this and other forums frequented by professionals and semi-pros, I started recording and mixing my drums starting with the OH's and then moving on to the close mics. When I first began recording a few years ago, I only went off what I saw in pictures and videos of drummers playing in the studio and simply thought that the OH's were for cymbals and whatnot. Big mistake. I used to mix starting with the kick and snare, and then adding in the OH's. I treated each mic as it's own instrument.

Now, I set up starting with the OH's. I usually do the spaced-pair config with pretty good success. I usually have to flip the phase of my kick and bottom snare, but the stereo image and depth of the drums is very good and totally acceptable by me... which isn't easy because I'm a drummer and try my best to not focus all my energy on the drums hehe.
I mix starting with panning everything to where I think the mics should be in the stereo field. Not much can go wrong here as long as you don't pan soemthing way out of the way (snare off to the left side 100%). I check the phase of each mic and a/b them to make sure my head is on straight. I find it's important to get the phase right to start or when you attempt to EQ that kick you will be EQ'ing something that isn't right to start with. You will say to yourself "man, this kick is weak... what happened?", when in reality it's perfectly fine and is just out of phase with the OH's. So then you will try to EQ the kick to bring back what was never actually lost. I then go on to the snare, toms, etc etc. Point is, as pointed out above and in the linked post, make sure you don't make small decisions based on the solo'd mic. It's like EQing a rhythm guitar without having a bass track to compliment it. It will just create problems later on.

I'd also like to point out that if you record a speed-metal band or some crazy music project that has a ton of double kick, it may be necessary to trigger the kick through something like audiosnap and then replace the kicks with midi. The reason could be as simple as to cut out any additional mic bleed (cymbals being hit real hard by these drummers!!) or maybe even to control dynamics of the drummer. Heck, you may just need to sample a more accurate sound! I know I have.

Possibilities with today's software and availability of equipment are huge. Drums aren't rocket science, but they aren't easy to record either. It takes practice and then when you have a system that works for you a new idea gets tossed around that challenges you again.