Vertigo50
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Recording Vocals - A few questions
I'm recording vocals seriously for the first time. Up until now, I've been doing film score work and never really had any need to record vocals with much quality. Now I'm working on some pop songs, and the vocal quality has to be stellar. I'm considering buying an outboard compressor to So I have a few questions about the recording process. 1. If I record at 16-bit with compression applied before it gets to the inputs, would it be better or worse than recording at 24-bit or higher with no compression? Once I reach 24-bit or higher bit depth, is compression even necessary when recording? (Obviously, compression will be needed in the mix, but I'm just asking about recording.) 2. Should I record vocals at the highest bit depth possible? 3. Is it possible to have the project be in 16-bit or 24-bit, but record the vocal track at a higher bit depth? 4. Should I be using the "64-Bit Engine"? Does this cause more CPU overhead? 5. Are there any other issues I'm missing with the bit depth and compression ideas?
post edited by Vertigo50 - 2006/11/29 01:45:55
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chrysb93021
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 03:13:17
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I'm by no means an expert, but running your projects at 24 bit will always give you more 'air' and headroom than 16 bit. Always try to get the highest input level without clipping and preferably without incoming compression. Sometimes 'riding the faders' during tracking will solve most potential overs that may occur. Most modern computers can handle 64 bit processing without straining too hard, at least during tracking. As far as I know, you can import 16 bit wave or other source files to a project, but once you set the bit depth to 24 bit to record the vocals, everything is processed at 24 bit. Don't forget the vocal recording basics - great mic, great preamp, great room, and, of course a great singer. Good luck.
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triscuit
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 03:31:13
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I'd say record at 24-bit and make sure you hover around -13 to -7 decibels. If you are going to record at 16-bit they need to be a little louder. I'd say add a little compression while recording. This evens out your levels so you can easily use a gate or V-vocal later. OF course this is up for for debate. I guess it really depends on how nice your equipment is. I wish I had the money to buy a nice compressor because a hardware compressor is going to sound better then any software compressor. Even though you will probably going to have to add a software compressor later a hardware compressor adds a nice color to the sound. Read through this thread on gain-staging: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=913060 While not exactly what you are looking for it explains a little more on 24-bit and levels. The sonar meters are really nice so make sure you take full advantage of them.
post edited by triscuit - 2006/11/29 03:50:43
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MQ
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 04:07:03
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When it comes to vocals, I prefer 24-bit but I have done plenty of 16-bits as well and when I listen to them in the mix I could hardly tell the differens, but if I solo them I can hear a tiny differens. (Very very, tiny actually). This really depend on what kind of music you record!
24-bit gives you more headroom so you dont have to record so hot as with 16-bit. Altough if you have an outboard compressor i recomend using it, but use only a small amount of compression to even things out. Later you can use a software compressor for "effect". You dont "need" a compressor at the recording stage but it will give you an easier job when mixing. Also, if you have an limiter use that as well to make sure you dont get any overload in the middle of that great rcording.
In version 6 you could mix resolution, but it is probably better to use only one.
IMO the 64-bit engine does very little do your recordings and it does use extra CPU so you dont really need it.
Remember that the vocal technique, mic placement and pop-shield is by far more important than bitdepth and 64bit engines.
For people who hasnt done a lot of vocal-recordings I say start out with 16-bit to learn.
If you can make a great 16-bit vocaltrack then you have come a long way. Switching to 24-bit can then give you some benefit, but it will be more rewarding when you really know how to do it.
MQ
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NW Smith
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 08:57:34
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themidiroom
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 09:23:19
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Don't forget about good vocal technique as well. We sometimes overlook that.
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thirdstreammusic
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 11:12:24
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I agree with midiroom 100% - the difference between a stellar vocal take and an average one is the singer's technique. Not blasting their ahs, or over enunciating their consonants, singing from their diaphragm, not their throat, not to over vibrato or ease into notes, and the most overlooked technique: SINGING ON KEY!!
In addition, compression pre recording should be minimal and used only to keep the overall levels consistent - always record in 24 bit where possible - this will be crucial for extensive editing and lowering of the noisefloor. Use your best mics, but experiment with your mics (some work great with male vocals, others are better suited for female).
A common technique is to get a good take, and then have the vocalist sing a second take taking care to match the syllables and the rhythm of the first, this will give you good presence and more to work with.
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AT
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 15:30:50
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24 bit. As stated above, more bits = more headroom. It is better to record a bit low than too loud; once you distort it is over. I dont' have problems different bit depths in Sonar (importing samples), but my preSonus FirePod freezes with differnet rates.
64 bits gives more headroom with mixing/effects.
I wouldn't record w/ compression unless you have a good one and know how to use it. It is easier to fix volume problems in the mix than record something that isn't right so you can't get rid of it. Besides, your software comp is probably better than your hardware and you can fix many volume problems/noise with mutes and envelopes so your comp doesn't have to work so hard (kinda like using a good compressor right as you record).
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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dontletmedrown
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 15:45:04
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Don't track with compression unless you are a pro and very confident in your abilities AND have a kick-ass compressor. Since this is your first time doing vocals, I'd recommend tracking dry and compressing with a plug afterwards. Unless you are planning to buy a high-end compressor (1176, Distressor, etc.) and really spend a lot of time with it first, you can do more harm than good.
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 16:18:37
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Thanks for all the responses. This is helping a lot.
I guess my main question about compression was this:
In 16-bit, you have to keep the signal very hot, so if your singer is very dynamic, you end up turning it down quite a bit, and thus you lose quality. This is why most people use compression on input, as once you turn it down and lose those bits, you can't get them back.
But, from what I'm hearing from everyone, in 24-bit or higher, the extra headroom probably makes the compression unnecessary, right? Because your noise floor is now much lower.
I have no problem with doing compression afterward, and I like that option, as it's non-destructive. I just want to make sure I'm getting the best quality I can.
Also, vocal performance is a non-issue. My vocalist is my wife. She's had years of vocal training, along with a healthy amount of studio experience. She knows what she's doing. I'm luck in that respect. Rarely does she ever do a take that is not stellar.
Thanks again for all the replies. This is a lot of good info.
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thirdstreammusic
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 16:50:57
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Actually I think compression on the front end can be a very useful tool, but you certainly need to know what you are doing so you do not ruin a track. I usually add a little gain and limit the highest db input with a relatively slow attack - it gives you a much more uniform wave. Since it is your wife, you can probably experiment quite a bit and learn to use it for your advantage!
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themidiroom
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 16:55:37
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Maybe I'm wrong, but years ago, maybe they compressed during the recording phase to either minimize compression during the mixdown or to compress in stages. You really wouldn't have to do that now with plugins unless you have a great analog compressor and you love the sound of it going into the DAW.
Whenever I have to record a less experienced vocalist, It makes it much more difficult to make them work well in the mix.
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thirdstreammusic
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 17:49:57
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I used to think it was not necessary (well, it is not necessarily necessary) - but after experimenting and learning te proper technique, it actually makes for a much better take, IMO. I think mainly because you can apply light compression in stages as opposed to over compression at the final stage. When recording jazz, funk and classical this is important so the compression is truly transparent. If you are recording rap or heavy music - ignore these remarks and over compress away!
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davidchristopher
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 20:35:30
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ORIGINAL: Vertigo50
I'm recording vocals seriously for the first time. Up until now, I've been doing film score work and never really had any need to record vocals with much quality. Now I'm working on some pop songs, and the vocal quality has to be stellar. I'm considering buying an outboard compressor to
So I have a few questions about the recording process.
1. If I record at 16-bit with compression applied before it gets to the inputs, would it be better or worse than recording at 24-bit or higher with no compression? Once I reach 24-bit or higher bit depth, is compression even necessary when recording? (Obviously, compression will be needed in the mix, but I'm just asking about recording.)
2. Should I record vocals at the highest bit depth possible?
3. Is it possible to have the project be in 16-bit or 24-bit, but record the vocal track at a higher bit depth?
4. Should I be using the "64-Bit Engine"? Does this cause more CPU overhead?
5. Are there any other issues I'm missing with the bit depth and compression ideas?
So... I don't completly understand why people ask questions that have been covered ad-nauseum in just about every recording forum on this, and several other planets. Search is a very useful tool. Anyhoo... 1) Record at 24 bit. Do not compress the input, you can do that after. 2) That depends on what you're recording. Highest you can afford. 3) no. Just set the whole project to 24 bit. 4) yes, you will have better results when mixing with the 64bit engine.
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 20:54:23
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ORIGINAL: davidchristopher
So... I don't completly understand why people ask questions that have been covered ad-nauseum in just about every recording forum on this, and several other planets. Search is a very useful tool. Anyhoo... Did a few searches. Felt like starting a new discussion. Obviously others thought this was a good idea as well, since they joined the discussion. The answer to your question is that this is a DISCUSSION forum. So people come here because they like to discuss things. Some people are happy reading hundreds of pages to find the one nugget of wisdom they're looking for. Sometimes I do that. Other people like to come and discuss a topic, even if it's been discussed "ad nauseum". Because for me, it hasn't been discussed ad nauseum. In fact, it hasn't been discussed at all. And if there are people who want to discuss it today with me, how does that hurt you or anyone else? I'm totally not trying to be a pest with this at all, and I'm not trying to start an argument with you. I'm just telling you why some people don't see discussion forums the way you do. So that is why others use them differently. Also, I'll mention that I've been a part of forums before that will only allow one discussion on a certain topic. If you start a new topic about something that has already been discussed, they will lock the post, and sometimes ban you. So what happens is, you end up with 185 pages in one discussion topic. And NO ONE has that much time on their hands. I don't stay on forums like that very long.
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kingo
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 21:18:23
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Ya know....I keep going around and around in my crazy head about adding compression/eq pre DAW. I've ben mixing for 30 years, so I've had a LOT of time to stew over this! I go both ways (don't get any ideas)...but my current flavor is to get the sound you want, THEN go into the DAW. It takes lot's of futzing up front, but it's well worth it. It's rare that you can take a so-so sounding track and get it to really rock in DAW world. I've done it, but I've had a LOT more success getting it right to tape. (My god...did I say TAPE???)
As far as 16 vs. 24: do your projects at the highest bit depth and sample rate your system can handle...period!
You must have recording/musician buddies...borrow some analog gear to mess with.
So bottom line...you have to experiment with the sound, and with the DAW. I usually load a similar style commercial song into my project to compare. If I'm not as good as that, I keep futzing.
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 21:23:42
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kingo,
I never have any problem getting the sound I want from the DAW, I'm just concerned about getting the highest resolution, cleanest sound possible INTO the DAW. So my big concern was whether I was losing a lot of bit depth by not compressing.
At this point I'm pretty convinced that the tradeoff of no compression and a totally unaltered signal is worth the slight drop in bit depth, especially if I record at 24 or 32-bit.
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kingo
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 21:40:48
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Vertigo,
Sure I understand, that makes sense. I personally view mics and the analog stuff as instruments. They add a subjective color...and feeling.
BTW...what style of music?
EK
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thirdstreammusic
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/29 21:50:47
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Vertigo - you will always find people responding that way on this forum, them and also the ones taking the time to berate you for not reading your manual as opposed to staying out of it or saying something constructive (I think everyone knows to read the manual - this forum is not here to be a constant reminder of that). As if your post is taking up their precious forum space (which I assume is near unlimited). These people should really keep the negativity to themselves and let the people who use the forum as a tool, not as reassurance that they are the best (that's what your mama is for), use it.
Good point about analog - you record at a higher ips = better quality - downside you use more tape - same thing here for bit depth - the higher, the better quality, the more memory and disk space it takes. As far as compression before recording is concerned - if you become experienced at it, it becomes a tool and you can use it pre recording or post to capture a great vocal take. Or you can always use the plugin factory preset for 'Awesome Vocal!'.
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 01:49:18
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ORIGINAL: kingo
Vertigo,
Sure I understand, that makes sense. I personally view mics and the analog stuff as instruments. They add a subjective color...and feeling.
BTW...what style of music?
EK
Well, you name it. I do mostly film scoring, so everything from jazz to pop to orchestral to.....whatever. Recently, I'm working in the Folk/Pop/Electronica genre as that's what my wife's music entails. By the way, PLEASE don't think that I was insulting you with what I said. I certainly wasn't saying that you're inadequate if you can't get the sound out of the DAW or anything like that. In reading it now, I could see how someone might take it that way. I'm just saying that I've never met a sound I couldn't get out of Sonar yet. Sometimes I have to "simulate" an analog sound, but I think it's still pretty good. Having said that, I've not worked much with analog gear, so I admit ignorance to the subject. I do know that once I was asked to create a "Beatles" sound, and had to use some analog simulations, and playing my piece next to the Beatles song, I was very pleased at how similar the sound was.
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 01:55:03
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As I mentioned, I'm pretty convinced now that my best route is to use no compression at the recording stage. Especially since I won't have a high quality compressor to use. At best it would be an inexpensive compressor, as I wouldn't allocate much for that expense.
BUT, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to insert a realtime compressor into the track while the vocalist is recording, just for the sake of their headphone mix. It seems like that might give them a more present sound, and better feedback for how they're sounding. Especially since I will be using compression at a later stage, and this will get the vocalist closer to the "finished" sound, and give them a better reference for how they're doing. And of course, this would not be affecting the recording in any way, and could be removed later. Any thoughts on this? Do some of you do it this way?
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davidchristopher
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 11:52:59
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For starters, I wasn't 'knocking' your thread, but this HAS been discussed to death. ORIGINAL Vertigo50
I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to insert a realtime compressor into the track while the vocalist is recording, just for the sake of their headphone mix. It seems like that might give them a more present sound, and better feedback for how they're sounding
Now, this HAS NOT, and raises a good point. I find- both with my own vocals and also when tracking others- the only thing needed is a touch of 'verb. Firstly, I find that compression on the armed track causes the vocalist to lose "control" over their volume and any (which is usually very little) microphone technique they might have. However, this is a matter of taste - of the talent. I would suggest trying without first. A funny thing happens in the head of a vocalist - resonance - so what they sing or speak never sounds the same to them as what it ends up sounding like "on tape" (that's best evidence by the first timer's "wow do I really sound like that?" comment that everyone invariably goes through at some point). They wont notice the compression. Secondly, In using a HOST based DAW, you're going to have to watch the latency - otherwise the compression will come in at a slight delay and be very annoying. Especially in the headphones...
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kingo
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 12:39:06
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Yeah...try the compressor while monitoring. Sometimes it's nice for a vocalist to have something to "push against". Also, it's nice for the softer tones so she can work the breathy quality of her voice more easily. Just make sure you leave enough headroom while recording. Singers have a LOT more dynamic range than instruments.
It certainly makes sense that if you don't have a great analog compressor, don't stick a piece of junk in the line. On the other hand, the famous Phil Collins vocal sound used the console talkback mic autolimiter...a serious piece of crap. They loved the sound. Someone recently made it into a plugin!
BTW...I was OK with what you said. No Prob. Thanks for being cool.
One more thing to consider...the room acoustics will probably make more of a difference than everything we've been talking about. I'm always screwing with blankets, tube traps, baffles, mic position, etc. Have fun!
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Vertigo50
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 15:19:41
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Ok, here's my stupid newb question of the post. Is there any way to have Sonar show the direct input volume of the signal, rather than the track volume? Or do I just have to monitor that in my soundcard mixer?
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juicerocks
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RE: Recording Vocals - A few questions
2006/11/30 18:45:31
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Well without much recording experience but much research and live experience. My view on compression is like anything else. What kind of sound are you looking for? In the hairband days Compression was used like an effct not just on vocals but drums and just about everthing. It's a large sound. But may not be suitable for some dynamic expressions. It can be very handy for singers that may have a good voice but little experience using the mic as an instrument. A microphone to a singer is an instrument and just like any instrument the player may have an adept insite to tone and dynamics regardless of the ability to actually being able to play musical notes. If someone has a good, voice that doesn't automatically give them an insite on how to best use it when being amplified by a microphone. So from what I have been able to understand on it's value is you either using it as an effect or as a band aid for situations where mic techniques are falling short. Same goes for a limiter. Personally I alway use reverb when I sing because it makes me feel better from what I hear back mostly because of the way I sing. Some people like it dry. Unfortunately that is the constant struggle we all face when recording for ourselves with all this technology of being able to. Sure we got what it takes from a hardware perspective. But just by having the fastest car doesn't make us an indy 500 racer. 
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