Premobile USB or other recommedations?

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adamj2
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2007/02/04 19:04:00 (permalink)

Premobile USB or other recommedations?

Hi,

I have a problem with latency when recording using guitar tracks and my built in soundcard, just plugging guitar directly into line-in. It is only a tiny bit of latency but is off putting as am playing ska-punk so is more noticeable when the timing is off for live recordings. I have adjusted the latency settings too the best possible but still a bit noticeable.

Was thinking of buying the premobile USB from M-Audio. Would that likely solve my problem and elimnate latency so when I record live using the backing drum loop it will be dead on time during playback? Could I plug in my guitar directly into that and use with guitar tracks?

I have an AMD Athlon XP 2000+, 2GHZ and 448MB of RAM.

Thanks.
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    fendorst
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/07 14:16:19 (permalink)
    There are a variety of other factors involved in eliminating latency, but I'll assume you have a handle on those and I'll just answer the question you asked.

    Yes, the M-Audio Mobile Pre will do what you want. Plug in your guitar, mic or other instrument, connect the Mobile Pre via USB cable to your PC or laptop, listen via headphones plugged into the Mobile Pre, and record new tracks in sync with zero latency as you listen to existing tracks.

    Consider the Lexicon Lambda unit instead of the M-Audio Mobile Pre, however. Roughly the same price depending on where you buy and the deal you get. The Lambda has superior digital signal converters, plus it has an array of bright clear LEDs which effectively warn of signal clipping so you can get a good strong signal without distortion. The Mobile Pre has only one dim green and one red LED to warn of clipping. They're so dim and they react so slowly that it's hard to tell when you're clipping. Because of that, you'll sometimes have to re-record what might have been a great performance that you didn't know was clipping until you played it back.

    You'll find some folks in this forum hate all USB interfaces. Maybe USB isn't optimal for super high-end systems and pro studios. For what I'm doing and the gear I use, and for what it appears you're doing and the gear you use, USB interfaces are a great cost-effective solution for home recordists. Just check out the Lexicon Lambda before you buy the Mobile Pre.
    #2
    adamj2
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/07 19:22:45 (permalink)
    Cool, many thanks for your help.

    I probably do not have a handle on the latency issues you were talking about though! Are there ways I can try and get my latency down even further with my current set up?

    At the moment I have a buffer size of 240 samples, 5.4ms, which is the lowest I can go without the sound distorting, using the ASIO4ALL software and my generic NVIDIA soundcard.

    I am basically recording my guitar in real time against the backing of a drum loop I have imported into cakewalk and since there is a slight delay between striking the string and it being recorded I can tell that it is not quite dead on time.

    Thanks.
    #3
    fendorst
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 10:38:13 (permalink)
    If you've gotten down to the level of detail evident in your last post, you're well beyond my help. I don't have an Athlon processor or your soundcard, so I don't know what options you are seeing when you click on the Settings buttons to configure your system. Other than check the help file or the GTP manual, I'm sorry to say I can't suggest any further assistance with configuring GTP itself.

    I do know that ASIO settings are required for zero latency with my USB audio interface, and it looks like you have chosen that setting for your soundcard. Only other suggestion I have is to look around for a slider or menu labeled latency somewhere in one of your Settings screens. Some soundcards simply are not capable of zero latency. If you don't find a latency slider or menu anywhere, you may have reached the end of the line with your existing setup.

    The buffer thing has more to do with how much data your system caches during recording and playback, to keep things running smoothly without constantly drawing data directly from your hard drive. You do want to optimize the buffer setting, but it doesn't necessarily relate to latency. Latency has more to do with how quickly the soundcard and the rest of the system communicate with one another when signal is being sent and received simultaneously.
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    scook
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 10:56:16 (permalink)
    It is impossible to achieve 0ms latency but it is not necessary when recording audio.

    To produce recordings that are in sync, do not monitor the track being recorded through the DAW.

    Many interfaces supply "zero latency" solutions. The intefaces route the signal being recorded directly to the output. This allows monitoring of the track being recorded along the previously recorded tracks so that everything is in sync.

    Recording latency becomes an issue when trying to sync up MIDI/softsynth tracks because there is no way to avoid monitoring through the DAW. It may or may not be a problem depending on the synth. Nudging the tracks after recording generally will fix any issue.
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    adamj2
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 14:21:07 (permalink)
    Maybe I should just re-adjust the start time of the recording then to get in more in sync with the backing drum loops I have layed out? If I have a latency of 5.4ms what sort of start time on the cakewalk clock thing would be suitable?

    If the zero latency is less of a requriment due to the above solution maybe a m-audio black box would be more suitable for me?

    The amp sounds it has would appeal to me. (since i am just using a guitar with no amp or pre-amp etc at the moment) Would I be able to play and record the amp effects in real time without latency issues? I find the amplitude LE quite hard to get the sounds I am looking for at the moment.
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    scook
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 14:29:52 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: adamj2


    The amp sounds it has would appeal to me. (since i am just using a guitar with no amp or pre-amp etc at the moment) Would I be able to play and record the amp effects in real time without latency issues? I find the amplitude LE quite hard to get the sounds I am looking for at the moment.


    This is the root cause of you sync problem. There is no way to use software effects including amp sims in realtime while recording without introducing delay. Even if you could run your hardware down to 0ms latency, there will always be delay due to the buffering used by the effects. Try to record dry and the apply effects after the track is laid down. If you need to play with effects you are going to need to do that in hardware. The best way would be a small mixer so that you can track dry and monitor with effects or something like a Line 6 POD.
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    fendorst
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 15:14:51 (permalink)
    It is NOT necessary to record dry and then add effects later, or to only use real hardware effects.

    I use the M-Audio Mobile Pre, Amplitube guitar amp sym, and I record my guitar with amp sounds and effects with no latency or sync problems.

    The key is to turn off the input monitor switch on the channel of GTP into which you are recording your guitar. This way you don't hear the dry signal which is being recorded, you only hear the guitar sound with amp and effects plus what's already recorded on other channels. And you hear it all in sync with imperceptible latency. This is assuming you have adjusted your latency settings to the minimum in GTP.

    Furthermore, GTP records the dry guitar signal without processing. The amp-and-effects sound you hear while recording is only being played through the monitor system, not being recorded onto the track. After recording I can always change the Amplitube settings on the track to get a different amp or effects sound. I can tweak it until I like the sound, or if I delete Amplitube from the effects bin altogether, the guitar track plays back dry.

    So with the Mobile Pre and Amplitube, you are in fact recording dry. But while you record the dry guitar, what you're monitoring is the sound of a guitar through an amp with effects. As long as your settings are adjusted correctly, the guitar/amp/effects sound you hear will be in sync with the other tracks, and you'll hear no perceptible latency.
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    scook
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 15:35:28 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: fendorst

    The key is to turn off the input monitor switch on the channel of GTP into which you are recording your guitar. This way you don't hear the dry signal which is being recorded, you only hear the guitar sound with amp and effects plus what's already recorded on other channels. And you hear it all in sync with imperceptible latency. This is assuming you have adjusted your latency settings to the minimum in GTP.


    Yes, input monitor will definitely through everything off.

    ORIGINAL: fendorst
    Furthermore, GTP records the dry guitar signal without processing.


    of course, it is not possible to apply software effects while recording

    ORIGINAL: fendorst
    As long as your settings are adjusted correctly, the guitar/amp/effects sound you hear will be in sync with the other tracks, and you'll hear no perceptible latency.


    This explains why some still have problems with recording latency. If you are not using the "zero latency" routing in the audio interface, there is still going to be some latency that might need to be accounted for and the problem is additive between recording sessions. I now understand why so many that are just recording audio are striving for sub 5ms latency. I have no problems recording synced audio between 10 - 30ms latency which is sometimes necessary when a project is bogged down with several CPU hungry MIDI tracks.

    It's all in the approach and the project I guess.
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    adamj2
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/08 18:06:32 (permalink)
    So maybe mobilepre would be more suitable for me if any amp effects used on the usb device such as blackbox will not be recorded?

    What is the best way to use Amplitude LE with GT3? I find it hard to find the right sounds with the presets and the "audition" function only plays the first 2 seconds of the entire track so there is no sound to test! Can you hear Amplitude LE effects in and adjust them in real time or is it just for going over afterwards?
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    scook
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/09 08:12:46 (permalink)
    If you are going to use an M-Audio Blackbox, the MobilePre is redundant. The Blackbox is your audio interface. If you are happy the the sound out of the Blackbox, use it. The nice thing about the Blackbox is that you can record an effect track and a dry track at the same time. That gives you the best of both worlds since you can take the dry track and use Amplitube or other effects and blend them with the Blackbox sound. It also has dynamic mic in. It looks like a pretty nice interface for a one person, guitar oriented setup.

    BTW, the Blackbox provides "zero latency" via input/playback knob on the top panel.
    post edited by scook - 2007/02/09 08:38:12
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    fendorst
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/09 08:37:21 (permalink)
    Regarding good-sounding guitar amplifier simulations...

    I downloaded FreeAmp2 from FrettedSynth and I like it better than the Amplitube sim. Click on the link below, look down the page to VST Plugins, click on the FreeAmp2 link, and download the thing. Follow their directions for loading it into GTP, and follow the help file in GTP and the GTP VST Manager module for additional info on how to make it work with your system.

    FreeAmp2 is a great-sounding amp sim, huge rack of effects, much more flexible and realistic sounding than the Amplitube Lite module included in GTP. You'll be able to get a much wider variety of sounds than you can get from Amplitube Lite.

    http://frettedsynth.com/
    #12
    scook
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/09 08:48:56 (permalink)
    The frettedsynth stuff is nice

    A good no fills Marshall sound for free here
    http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm

    Add other effects that you have on hand or read this thread
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=498839
    for a bunch of nice freebies
    post edited by scook - 2007/02/09 09:10:45
    #13
    adamj2
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    RE: Premobile USB or other recommedations? 2007/02/14 19:40:20 (permalink)
    More on the microphone side of things now.

    I have a audio technia ATR-25 mic with a stereo connection and 2 mono 1/4 connections. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/0288c41b918b13b4/index.html

    Would that work ok with the mobile pre and what would the best way to connect it be?

    If I used the stereo input would that amplify the signal enough? When I tried the mic. input on my generic PC soundcard the mic had to be right up to my mouth to detect anything.
    #14
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